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Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

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Re: Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

Postby WyldStallyn » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:10 am

that is rediculous. i play in a league with almost those same pitching settings (1 more p slot) and i usually have 4 closers. every manager can use whatever strategy they want. if anything its an opportunity for them to get more points via W's and K's. and in response to your leaguemates post, you are losing something. by carrying more closers you have less players to cover other positions. either you have a weaker position bench, or 1 or 2 less SP. if injuries start mounting up you have fewer players to replace them, and will either lose AB's at a position or be forced to drop an injured player for a less talented one who is currently healthy. abolishing the bench is a rediculous proposition as whoever has the fewest injuries usually wins. tell them to stop making excuses for why they could lose and just shut up and play the game. they sound like theyre self-absorbed preteens.
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Re: Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

Postby BronXBombers51 » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:19 am

Doughhead wrote:I really have a hard time believing that these sort of shenanigans exist in experts leagues My guess is they have a gentlemen's agreement to play positions the way they are intended.


Well then he certainly has another think coming. Send him in here and show him this thread. That post is a joke. There is nothing morally or ethically wrong with the strategy you are employing. That is precisely the point of having P slots. If you weren't supposed to be given the option of playing a SP or RP there, then why would these spots exist at all?

Man, that pisses me off. I've never played in a league where people don't employ those strategies. It's not any guaranteed win for them....punting categories can frequently have the opposite effect if you don't run your team incredibly smoothly and fall into some luck. Saying that you are cheating is laughable. These guys would get blown away in an expert league.

Good fantasy baseball players can adjust on the fly, and determine what they'll have to do to compete with other managers in the league. It seems that these guys just don't want to be bothered with that.
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Re: Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

Postby BALCO All-Stars » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:24 am

I don't know what to say...I especially like the part where the guy said Soria was a mediocre closer...mediocre TEAM yes...mediocre closer, hardly.

I hate to say it, but maybe you shouldn't play in this league next year. You changed the rules for this season to accommodate their grumblings last year, now they're grumbling again. It's tough to play with managers like this...friends or not...UGH.
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Re: Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

Postby great gretzky » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:25 am

Doughhead wrote:Well, the third dissenter from last year posted this on our pool's page this morning. Just thought I'd post it here to show you what I'm talking about...

I really am at a loss...so this year's loophole has been shifted to RP's as it appears to me and some other fantasy managers.

The Taint Bros. (he's referring to me and last year's league champ) will now hoard as many closers as possible and play them every night their starters are not starting...this carousel of RP's will allow them to get lots of quality innings, a skewed number of saves and almost no downside to the numbers accumulated by the starters.

You know it pains me to think that 6 managers simply put their effort into drafting and picking up the best talent per position and use their bench and DL spots to replace injured or innefective players not use as a carousel of players to gain an unlikely and ridiculous advantage. It is not illegal and maybe not even cheating but it really isn't sportsmanlike or gentlemanly in a league consisting of friends...for god's sake its been like 2 weeks and [Doughhead] has a nice lead in saves although they are all mediocre relievers (Valverde, Corpas, Soria, Capps) and we all see where the trend will lead over a whole season.
I really have a hard time believing that these sort of shenanigans exist in experts leagues My guess is they have a gentlemen's agreement to play positions the way they are intended.

I think after this year there is only one proposition left that will keep the Taint Bros. from finding a loophole in the system and abusing it...its to abolish all bench spots (keep DL spots for injured stars and increase them if necessary). This makes all managers play their players how we all intended when these pools started. Although most of us already understand that!

I also gaurantee that the Taint Bros. did not each stumble into this "strategy" coincidentally at the same time...one of them noticed this loophole, told the other and both loaded up on all available closers.


The thing is, it's not a loophole. All of the positions are stated before the draft. Implicit in the game is your discretion of how to fill your team. These children are acting like they are defenseless during the draft or after it to do anything about it. I would argue back (if so inclined) with the math. To do that strategy, your team and the other team are giving everyone 4 points they wouldn't have in two categories. And that's right off the top. And the thing is, there is a less obvious advantage too, in that if you and the other team hoard closers (which you have to in order to compete), you lower the "cost of doing business" in saves. Meaning to finish middle of the pack, you might only need two. And to get a 3, you could probably do that with one good closer. (not likely, but possible). Fact of the matter is, they can't be that smart if they don't realize this. Right off the top, you are giving everyone a head start. People in your league are looking at it through an entirely wrong prism. They get points they would have had to compete for, AND they can still foil your plans at the draft or during the season. I think it's pretty stupid (on their part) actually, as if I saw that, I would be licking my chops and go out of my way to absolutely bury someone trying it.

This is completely ignoring the OBVIOUS argument that the whole point of the "P" slot is to create that variance.

And the claim to their "picking out the best players" line always makes me gag. It's not a game of absolutes, your players can be good, or maybe even the best. But their utility to you and your team is relative, no matter how much people want to insist otherwise. If their "best players" are actually hindering their chances to win because picking them allows you to pursue your strategy unabated, then its THEIR problem, not yours; and those players clearly aren't the "best" because the "best" can ultimately really be only those players who give you the best chance to win.

One other note. They could just reverse you and punt saves, and really go monstrous with starters. I mean if some team were to get johan, webb and a couple other studs, you might not even win ERA and WHIP, someone might edge you in one of them. Then you would be stuck.

At the end of the day (I hate that phrase, but its appropriate here), their appeal to "sportsmanship" is BS. They seem like the type of chess players who complain when they offered up a valuable piece for sacrifice, but you decline. Or the type of person who would complain that you teed off with an iron when you had a lead to protect. There are real arguments you can make, but they are appealing to some nebulous concept that means different things to different people. Just because not every team utilizes the stolen base doesn't mean teams that want to must decline in the name of sportsmanship.
Last edited by great gretzky on Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

Postby BronXBombers51 » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:29 am

^^^^
Great post.
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Re: Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

Postby Giambis » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:39 am

Gentlemen's agreement. HA
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Re: Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

Postby talan37 » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:55 am

I "sort of" agree with them, but think they took the completely wrong approach to handling it. If they wanted a league in which in their opinion had no "loopholes" then they should have set it up like that. Complaining after the first year is just stupid because they had the opportunity to fix it and didn't.

I am personally fine with the second approach mentioned with the SP/RP/P spots to give everyone flexibility of having extra closers or extra starters and complaining about that is really stupid. I am however not a fan of the players with mixed SP/RP eligibility. If it was within the rules though I would certainly not act the way they have done, I would let it go for the season and if the majority of people wanted it changed, it would be changed, otherwise I would deal with it.

My league uses max 8 starts per week(matchup), with 4 RP/4 SP slots open per day. You can shuffle more than 4 relievers in and out of the relief slots, but you can't put them in SP slots. We have not changed the eligibility of every player who is RP/SP but the rule is you are only allowed to use them in the role they are at the time other than an incidental outting.(technically billingsley's first outting was a relief appearance not a start) This is a "gentlemans" agreement that you don't put relievers in starter spots or vice-versa since the league website doesn't technically prevent it, however it is against the rules and the commish will retro-actively remove them if you get caught.

You are definitely not in the wrong, although if I was playing in a league with friends, after the first year with such a split, I would probably try to make some sort of agreement or come to terms so that everyone was happy. I know what your doing is well within the rules, and a viable strategy, but obviously your leaguemates think you are violating the spirit of the rules, otherwise they wouldn't be so upset about it.
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Re: Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

Postby mkultra » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:03 pm

You should definitely direct them to this thread, Great Gretzky's excellent analysis specifically. They're completely missing the point that the "hoard closers" strategy opens up several counterstrategies.

I think they're also having an emotional reaction to what's unfolded during the first couple weeks of the season- a lot of "top" pitchers have been inconsistent, and a lot of middle-of-the-pack closers have been racking up saves. I'm currently running away with saves in a 14-team league with Jenks, Sherrill, and Soria, but I highly doubt I can keep that pace. All of this, for the most part, will even out over the course of the season, but I can see someone looking at early standings and not seeing the forest through the trees.
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Re: Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

Postby AussieDodger » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:04 pm

I don't understand how they think you're unethical.
P = RP or SP.
If they wanted SP instead then they should have specified before the season.
If they can't comprehend that you can be all closers or all starters then their claim of "experts league" is rather shaky.

I wonder what they would have thought about this tactic i employed last week.......................................
(Benching all my pitchers to hold onto a tenuous lead in ERA in my H2H 20 teamer.Mission accomplished ;-D )

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Re: Are My Leaguemates Idiots?

Postby great gretzky » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:11 pm

talan37 wrote:I "sort of" agree with them, but think they took the completely wrong approach to handling it. If they wanted a league in which in their opinion had no "loopholes" then they should have set it up like that. Complaining after the first year is just stupid because they had the opportunity to fix it and didn't.

I am personally fine with the second approach mentioned with the SP/RP/P spots to give everyone flexibility of having extra closers or extra starters and complaining about that is really stupid. I am however not a fan of the players with mixed SP/RP eligibility. If it was within the rules though I would certainly not act the way they have done, I would let it go for the season and if the majority of people wanted it changed, it would be changed, otherwise I would deal with it.

My league uses max 8 starts per week(matchup), with 4 RP/4 SP slots open per day. You can shuffle more than 4 relievers in and out of the relief slots, but you can't put them in SP slots. We have not changed the eligibility of every player who is RP/SP but the rule is you are only allowed to use them in the role they are at the time other than an incidental outting.(technically billingsley's first outting was a relief appearance not a start) This is a "gentlemans" agreement that you don't put relievers in starter spots or vice-versa since the league website doesn't technically prevent it, however it is against the rules and the commish will retro-actively remove them if you get caught.

You are definitely not in the wrong, although if I was playing in a league with friends, after the first year with such a split, I would probably try to make some sort of agreement or come to terms so that everyone was happy. I know what your doing is well within the rules, and a viable strategy, but obviously your leaguemates think you are violating the spirit of the rules, otherwise they wouldn't be so upset about it.



Sorry, I don't agree with most of this. This is like the people who complain about the shift. You are free to run your team, its the essence of the game. In fact I'd say if we were trotting out the word "spirit," the idea of managing your own team is the "spirit" of fantasy baseball. So in order of operations, that essence ranks higher on my list than some discussion about position eligibility and asset allocation. When you sign up for a league, unless you make arraignments to the contrary, you are agreeing to use the system. You may not like Yahoo's position eligibilities, but everyone has access to the rules and complete information. This is why I disagree strongly with throwing the term "loophole" around.
It's not a loophole at all, but a reasoned approach to information made public. Loophole, to me, implies some arcane subtlety that gets exploited because people are: too ignorant to understand the ramifications of the rules or not interested in learning the rules in the first place.

The thing with sports is that the rules are the rules. How you adjust to the rules, how you play and how you format your team are amoral considerations. I mean, is it violating the spirit of the game to start the game with your closer, then throw your "starter" out there? I'm sure some would complain, but a manager is free to do that. You don't even have to have a starter on your team if you don't want to. You could go with tons of middle relievers and closers in real life too (if you wanted). You don't HAVE to have a specific person named as a pitcher, you just need someone to take the mound. You don't need to have a five-man rotation either. If some team decided to go to three or four man so they could have more situational relievers, and didn't care about blowing up arms, they could do so. Why should fantasy be any different all? ESPECIALLY in the context that the teams doing this have a penalty exacted on them already--the points they spot to the rest of the league. Saying "loophole" isn't accurate, because when people exploit loopholes, there isn't a penalty, which is why they are doing it in the first place.

Intentional walking in baseball and fouling in hoops could be argued that its "against the spirit of the rules" because walks and fouls are something designed to discourage pitching outside the zone and being overly physical.

Frankly, it is immature to complain about it, as you should be preparing for your draft based on the scoring system, your projections AND how the roster sizes and positions affect it. Everyone does the first two, but the last consideration is wickedly important, and understanding how that affects position scarcity and likely strategies is a major component to the game. Remember, in chess its not a "loophole" to purposely sacrifice your Queen to set a trap for the win? It's not frequent, it's not stated that you can do it, but if you fall for it, then its your fault, not the person trying something unconventional.
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