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Joe Torre is miserable!!!

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Re: Joe * BLEEPING* Torre is *BLEEPING* miserable!!!

Postby Steve-o » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:52 am

tianyi86 wrote:And if I'm not mistaken, isn't Andrew Jones suppose to be a pretty good defensive center fielder, which isn't reflected in fantasy stats? I thought he won a gold glove back in the day with atlanta.


Yeah. He's pretty damn good in the field. Not historically good like he used to be around 2000, but certainly well above league average.

(PS - gold gloves are popularity contests, not an actual reflection of defense.)
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Re: Joe * BLEEPING* Torre is *BLEEPING* miserable!!!

Postby Matthias » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:57 am

lbbaseball14 wrote:Bro Andruw Jones is hitting .115 and hit .222 last year. I understand that hes probably a better hitter than what last years numbers suggest but why are people forgetting that Juan Pierre hit .293 last year with 60 sb's ??????? Last time I checked thats a pretty damn good year. Andruw Jones only hit 26 HR last year too, he has turned into Richie Sexson.

I'm sorry Torre is probably blocking your clever pick of Kemp, but saying this kind of stuff is just eeg-nee-rent.

First, Pierre's SB's were essentially meaningless. In addition to stealing over 60 bags, he got caught 15 times. And given that you need about a 70% success rate just to break even, his speed didn't count for much.

Second, you can talk average, but if you really want to talk, let's talk OBP.
Pierre's OBP the last 3 years: .332, .330, and .326.
Jones' OBP the last 3 years: .311, .363, and .347.

Third, Jones averages about a .500 SLG; Pierre tops out around .400 and generally hangs around .350.

Fourth, Jones has won 10 consecutive Gold Gloves. Yah, not the end all be all, I know, but apparently no matter how you cut it Jones is one heck of a defensive center fielder.

Jones isn't that old for a slugger... turns 31 this month. So there's good reason to expect that last year was an anomaly. (Don't even get into this year stats).

The idea that he's trumped by Pierre's empty .300 average and the manufactured double is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
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Re: Joe * BLEEPING* Torre is *BLEEPING* miserable!!!

Postby daniel80111 » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:25 am

Matthias wrote:
lbbaseball14 wrote:Bro Andruw Jones is hitting .115 and hit .222 last year. I understand that hes probably a better hitter than what last years numbers suggest but why are people forgetting that Juan Pierre hit .293 last year with 60 sb's ??????? Last time I checked thats a pretty damn good year. Andruw Jones only hit 26 HR last year too, he has turned into Richie Sexson.

I'm sorry Torre is probably blocking your clever pick of Kemp, but saying this kind of stuff is just eeg-nee-rent.

First, Pierre's SB's were essentially meaningless. In addition to stealing over 60 bags, he got caught 15 times. And given that you need about a 70% success rate just to break even, his speed didn't count for much.

Second, you can talk average, but if you really want to talk, let's talk OBP.
Pierre's OBP the last 3 years: .332, .330, and .326.
Jones' OBP the last 3 years: .311, .363, and .347.

Third, Jones averages about a .500 SLG; Pierre tops out around .400 and generally hangs around .350.

Fourth, Jones has won 10 consecutive Gold Gloves. Yah, not the end all be all, I know, but apparently no matter how you cut it Jones is one heck of a defensive center fielder.

Jones isn't that old for a slugger... turns 31 this month. So there's good reason to expect that last year was an anomaly. (Don't even get into this year stats).

The idea that he's trumped by Pierre's empty .300 average and the manufactured double is just wrong, wrong, wrong.


lbbaseball is just mad his pick isnt getting to play. Ned Colletti is a solid GM and I support him. In the end this team is going to be a good team, depth is more important than people think it is.
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Re: Joe * BLEEPING* Torre is *BLEEPING* miserable!!!

Postby The Artful Dodger » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:26 am

Good grief, we're only a week into the year, and a good lot of you are chastising Joe Torre for blocking your 4th round fantasy reach in Matt Kemp from playing. Did it ever occur to you that Joe is just retooling the lineup, seeing what his best combos could be offensively and defensively, and that it's still early April? Kemp will get the playing time, but Juan Pierre, as much as I loathe the guy, should squeeze the AB's as one, we don't pay the guy about $50 million to warm the dugout seats and two, we need to max his value out as much as possible to deal him.

Sure, it irks me a bit that Matt Kemp - even if I don't own the guy this year - hasn't been logging in the AB's as anticipated right out of Spring, but we all know the inherent risk in drafting Kemp high for this very reason; he's still young, not really all that polished at the plate yet for such a raw talent, and could lose starting time on a whim. Ethier is getting more time because his plate discipline is a step up or two from Kemp and likely won't be flustered for 4-pitch AB's to go down swinging. That said, Joe knows he has a great talent in Kemp and he knows that Kemp can only get the AB's to improve, but it's April and lots of baseball left to be played. Don't push the panic button, guys.

As for Andruw Jones, he's still a defensive asset, covers as much ground as Juan Pierre can in center, and can still hit for 30 HR power. He's still a must start each day for us.
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Re: Joe * BLEEPING* Torre is *BLEEPING* miserable!!!

Postby cards05 » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:27 am

lbbaseball14 wrote:I didnt draft Kemp expecting him to play over Andruw Jones and I know that he is going to play everyday.

Answer this question for me though..... and disregard contracts and all of that stuff.

Tell me your 3 starting outfielders if you were the manager of the Dodgers and it didnt matter how much you were paying them.

I GUARANTEE that Matt Kemp is in 99.9 percent of everyones top 3 when it comes to the Dodgers outfielders, he is the one player that should be a lock to play.


Contracts do matter but I agree with you that they shouldn't. Economic sunk costs are no different in baseball than they are anywhere else and I was under the incorrect assumption that the Dodgers understood this when they signed Jones. So, to answer your question, Kemp is in my lineup daily and Pierre, despite his contract, is a 4th outfielder and traded as soon as I can find a team to pick up even half of his salary.

That of course won't happen, though, as Pierre is the same player today as he was when he signed that horrible contract.
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Re: Joe * BLEEPING* Torre is *BLEEPING* miserable!!!

Postby AussieDodger » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:21 am

The Artful Dodger wrote:Good grief, we're only a week into the year, and a good lot of you are chastising Joe Torre for blocking your 4th round fantasy reach in Matt Kemp from playing. Did it ever occur to you that Joe is just retooling the lineup, seeing what his best combos could be offensively and defensively, and that it's still early April? Kemp will get the playing time, but Juan Pierre, as much as I loathe the guy, should squeeze the AB's as one, we don't pay the guy about $50 million to warm the dugout seats and two, we need to max his value out as much as possible to deal him.

Sure, it irks me a bit that Matt Kemp - even if I don't own the guy this year - hasn't been logging in the AB's as anticipated right out of Spring, but we all know the inherent risk in drafting Kemp high for this very reason; he's still young, not really all that polished at the plate yet for such a raw talent, and could lose starting time on a whim. Ethier is getting more time because his plate discipline is a step up or two from Kemp and likely won't be flustered for 4-pitch AB's to go down swinging. That said, Joe knows he has a great talent in Kemp and he knows that Kemp can only get the AB's to improve, but it's April and lots of baseball left to be played. Don't push the panic button, guys.

As for Andruw Jones, he's still a defensive asset, covers as much ground as Juan Pierre can in center, and can still hit for 30 HR power. He's still a must start each day for us.


I think Torre is just doing what he's told.
I place the blame squarely with Ned Colletti and his ego and/or mental retardation.
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Re: Joe * BLEEPING* Torre is *BLEEPING* miserable!!!

Postby gatorgreenwell » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:55 am

If you drafted a dodgers outfielder, you did it knowing that there was a level of uncertainty involved. You can't be surprised at how things are currently playing out; especially during the first week. Also, don't presume that Joe Torre knows what he is doing. He's perhaps the most overrated manager of all time.
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Re: Joe * BLEEPING* Torre is *BLEEPING* miserable!!!

Postby Pogotheostrich » Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:52 am

AussieDodger wrote:Pierre shouldn't even be on the bench. Again, if Colletti had any nads he'd straight cut Pierre from the team and eat the money owed.

That's a little crazy. Pierre isn't that good but he still has value as a bench player. They are going to pay him one way or the other so why not keep him on the team.
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Re: Joe Torre is miserable!!!

Postby slomo007 » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:05 am

After watching A. Jones last night, and noticing just how much weight he has gained in the past couple of years....I don't think he'll ever be a good outfielder or hitter again. The Richie Sexson comparison is 100% accurate at the plate. At the plate it looks like he has never seen a breaking pitch.

The Dodgers would be a better team without A. Jones, with Pierre in Left, Kemp in Center, and Ethier in right.
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Re: Joe * BLEEPING* Torre is *BLEEPING* miserable!!!

Postby AussieDodger » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:31 am

Pogotheostrich wrote:
AussieDodger wrote:Pierre shouldn't even be on the bench. Again, if Colletti had any nads he'd straight cut Pierre from the team and eat the money owed.

That's a little crazy. Pierre isn't that good but he still has value as a bench player. They are going to pay him one way or the other so why not keep him on the team.


On the bench as what?
Fielding :-t | Power :-t |Plate discipline :-t |Running ;-D
Pinch-runner is the only option.
I think the Dodgers can find a pinch-runner who is a better fielder, and hitter, therefore giving them more options.
There is a precedence of dropping this much dough - Josh Byrnes sacked one of the Ortiz's who was owed $20+ mil.
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