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the great joba debate

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starter or reliever?

starter
29
69%
reliever
13
31%
 
Total votes : 42

Re: the great joba debate

Postby BronXBombers51 » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:28 pm

J.C.Fighter wrote:
So you downgrade in relief pitching to bolster the rotation?[


Um...yes.


How sure are you that Joba will still be dominant?


Obviously nobody knows for sure, but you can take a look at his minor league numbers for some reference. His dominance as a starter is what led to the Yankees calling him up for some bullpen help last year. He at least deserves the OPPORTUNITY. If it doesn't work out, fine. Put him back in the 'pen. But we need to find out.


Joba doesn't need to be in the rotation right now . It's not like the Yankees rotation is one of the worst in the league. They have a decent 1-4 . NOT GREAT but decent. I just don't see the Yankees ever making the move...


We aren't talking about putting him in the rotation right now. Later on this year...yes. Odds are slim that all 5 of the Yankees current starters are going to hold up. And Joba in the rotation becomes even more vital after this year, when Pettitte and Mussina are gone. A rotation anchored around Hughes, Joba, Wang and Kennedy could be something very special.
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Re: the great joba debate

Postby KCollins1304 » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:28 pm

I can't believe this is as close as it is. There are arms that are very talented in the minors (Sanchez, Melancon, Cox, Horne). Middle relievers emerge from nowhere every year. There are others in the minors that are better than Hawkins and Farnsworth in Patterson, Ramirez, Albawhathisface. The bullpen will sort itself out, and I would not be surpised if over half of them currently on the 25 aren't on the post-season roster(if the Yanks make the postseason). The Yankees have gotten to the postseason with horrible relievers in front of Rivera for the last 4 years. Girardi and Cashman have stated over and over again that Joba will get 140 innings this year. Girardi isn't an old fashioned manager, he reads BP for instance, and he understands the Joba situation, as does Cashman. If the Yankees had wanted to they could have easily sold Joba as the closer this season and not signed Rivera. Rivera is signed for 2 more seasons, and it would be retarded to have your highest ceiling pitcher in a setup role for those next 2 years. I've got plenty more ammo if anyone wants to pursue this seriously. :-°
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Re: the great joba debate

Postby Noggy » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:15 pm

J.C.Fighter wrote:The Yankees have a lineup that's going to score runs and a pitching staff that's going to allow a few runs ... more times than not the Yankees will be up during the 8th inning so it would be wise to have a dominant reliever ready to pitch that inning... not no damn Farnsworth/ Hawkins ....


Using that logic, a great starter would put the team in position to be up 5+ runs by the 8th inning, so it wouldn't really matter who's pitching the 8th and 9th. The offense won't always be there, especially in the playoffs. You need starters who can match zeros when facing a tough opposing pitcher. It doesn't matter who pitches the 8th and 9th inning if your starting pitching sucks and you losing by 3+ runs at that point in the game. Just look at Rivera's lack of impact in the last three post season series for proof of that.

KCollins1304 wrote:Rivera is signed for 2 more seasons, and it would be retarded to have your highest ceiling pitcher in a setup role for those next 2 years.


Mo's signed for 3 years actually. And in that three year window, I'm sure Joba will be a starter. I hope he moves to the rotation this year, but I can live with him staying in the bullpen all of this season as long as he gets the chance to start at some point. He's way too good to not be given the chance to start. If he turns into an ace (which is very possible), you worry about the bullpen later especially if you're the Yankees and have a lot of young power arms in your system and the resources to bring in an established arm or two if need be. Building a bullpen is a lot easier than building a rotation. There's a reason relievers are failed starters and not the other way around. If Joba doesn't work out as a starter, then he's the Yankee closer for 15 or so years. Win-win situation.
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Re: the great joba debate

Postby KCollins1304 » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:19 pm

Noggy wrote:
J.C.Fighter wrote:The Yankees have a lineup that's going to score runs and a pitching staff that's going to allow a few runs ... more times than not the Yankees will be up during the 8th inning so it would be wise to have a dominant reliever ready to pitch that inning... not no damn Farnsworth/ Hawkins ....


Using that logic, a great starter would put the team in position to be up 5+ runs by the 8th inning, so it wouldn't really matter who's pitching the 8th and 9th. The offense won't always be there, especially in the playoffs. You need starters who can match zeros when facing a tough opposing pitcher. It doesn't matter who pitches the 8th and 9th inning if your starting pitching sucks and you losing by 3+ runs at that point in the game. Just look at Rivera's lack of impact in the last three post season series for proof of that.

KCollins1304 wrote:Rivera is signed for 2 more seasons, and it would be retarded to have your highest ceiling pitcher in a setup role for those next 2 years.


Mo's signed for 3 years actually. And in that three year window, I'm sure Joba will be a starter. I hope he moves to the rotation this year, but I can live with him staying in the bullpen all of this season as long as he gets the chance to start at some point. He's way too good to not be given the chance to start. If he turns into an ace (which is very possible), you worry about the bullpen later especially if you're the Yankees and have a lot of young power arms in your system and the resources to bring in an established arm or two if need be. Building a bullpen is a lot easier than building a rotation. There's a reason relievers are failed starters and not the other way around. If Joba doesn't work out as a starter, then he's the Yankee closer for 15 or so years. Win-win situation.


I meant 2 years after this one. The problem with keeping him in the bullpen this year is that his pitch limit will only be like 120 next year. I would rather not make the playoffs this season with Joba getting into the rotation and throwing 140 innings, than make the playoffs and never have Joba get a shot in the rotation.
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Re: the great joba debate

Postby Noggy » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:36 pm

KCollins1304 wrote:I meant 2 years after this one. The problem with keeping him in the bullpen this year is that his pitch limit will only be like 120 next year. I would rather not make the playoffs this season with Joba getting into the rotation and throwing 140 innings, than make the playoffs and never have Joba get a shot in the rotation.


That's a good point and it's something I thought about before I typed what I typed. But if the Yankees are looking like a serious World Series contender and nobody else in the bullpen steps up, I'd be willing to leave Joba in the pen this year and push back his move to the rotation until 2009. In my mind he has until the end of the 2010 season to prove he can start, but he doesn't necessarily need to be built to throw 220 at that point. As long as he gets about a year and a half in the rotation, the Yankees should have an idea of what he's capable of.
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Re: the great joba debate

Postby FantasyBBGuruInTraining » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:56 am

KCollins1304 wrote:I can't believe this is as close as it is. There are arms that are very talented in the minors (Sanchez, Melancon, Cox, Horne). Middle relievers emerge from nowhere every year. There are others in the minors that are better than Hawkins and Farnsworth in Patterson, Ramirez, Albawhathisface. The bullpen will sort itself out, and I would not be surpised if over half of them currently on the 25 aren't on the post-season roster(if the Yanks make the postseason). The Yankees have gotten to the postseason with horrible relievers in front of Rivera for the last 4 years. Girardi and Cashman have stated over and over again that Joba will get 140 innings this year. Girardi isn't an old fashioned manager, he reads BP for instance, and he understands the Joba situation, as does Cashman. If the Yankees had wanted to they could have easily sold Joba as the closer this season and not signed Rivera. Rivera is signed for 2 more seasons, and it would be retarded to have your highest ceiling pitcher in a setup role for those next 2 years. I've got plenty more ammo if anyone wants to pursue this seriously. :-°


Just a couple of points I would like to make in regards to this discussion. I agree that Joba needs to get the SP experience before the playoffs - because I currently don't feel confident with a Wang-Hughes-Mussina 1-2-3 rotation in a five-game playoff and beyond. However, with that being said, there is no reason to rush him into the rotation right now. As evidenced in the past few games, the Yankee offense is struggling quite a bit (although I'll grant they've gone up against some good pitching until tonight). So until the Yanks' offense starts to get rolling, why take your money set-up guy out of the equation? As a Yankee fan, I don't want 1, 2, or 3 run games in the 7th and 8th being left to the mercy of Farnsworth and Hawkins.

And if these fantastic relievers come out of nowhere - they need TIME to come out of nowhere. The Yanks should use the beginning of the season to try out these younger prospects to see if anyone of them can step up and even remotely fill Joba's shoes (i.e. using them in 6th-7th inning situations). This way, the bullpen can get sorted out... the Yanks can find a reliable late relief pitcher that won't hand over games to the opposition, and Joba can move into the rotation without worrying that a couple poor performances will send him right back into the BP (since he won't be desperately needed there).

Fact is - if Joba struggles in the rotation right now, and our craptacular BP blows some 8th inning leads - New York will demand Joba return to the BP, and his confidence in the future might take a hit.
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Re: the great joba debate

Postby KCollins1304 » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:01 am

FantasyBBGuruInTraining wrote:
KCollins1304 wrote:I can't believe this is as close as it is. There are arms that are very talented in the minors (Sanchez, Melancon, Cox, Horne). Middle relievers emerge from nowhere every year. There are others in the minors that are better than Hawkins and Farnsworth in Patterson, Ramirez, Albawhathisface. The bullpen will sort itself out, and I would not be surpised if over half of them currently on the 25 aren't on the post-season roster(if the Yanks make the postseason). The Yankees have gotten to the postseason with horrible relievers in front of Rivera for the last 4 years. Girardi and Cashman have stated over and over again that Joba will get 140 innings this year. Girardi isn't an old fashioned manager, he reads BP for instance, and he understands the Joba situation, as does Cashman. If the Yankees had wanted to they could have easily sold Joba as the closer this season and not signed Rivera. Rivera is signed for 2 more seasons, and it would be retarded to have your highest ceiling pitcher in a setup role for those next 2 years. I've got plenty more ammo if anyone wants to pursue this seriously. :-°


Just a couple of points I would like to make in regards to this discussion. I agree that Joba needs to get the SP experience before the playoffs - because I currently don't feel confident with a Wang-Hughes-Mussina 1-2-3 rotation in a five-game playoff and beyond. However, with that being said, there is no reason to rush him into the rotation right now. As evidenced in the past few games, the Yankee offense is struggling quite a bit (although I'll grant they've gone up against some good pitching until tonight). So until the Yanks' offense starts to get rolling, why take your money set-up guy out of the equation? As a Yankee fan, I don't want 1, 2, or 3 run games in the 7th and 8th being left to the mercy of Farnsworth and Hawkins.

And if these fantastic relievers come out of nowhere - they need TIME to come out of nowhere. The Yanks should use the beginning of the season to try out these younger prospects to see if anyone of them can step up and even remotely fill Joba's shoes (i.e. using them in 6th-7th inning situations). This way, the bullpen can get sorted out... the Yanks can find a reliable late relief pitcher that won't hand over games to the opposition, and Joba can move into the rotation without worrying that a couple poor performances will send him right back into the BP (since he won't be desperately needed there).

Fact is - if Joba struggles in the rotation right now, and our craptacular BP blows some 8th inning leads - New York will demand Joba return to the BP, and his confidence in the future might take a hit.


The whole plan is to put him in the rotation around ASB and limit his innings to 140ish, that is the plan I'm on board with if it wasn't evident from my post. ;-D
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Re: the great joba debate

Postby neoforce » Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:05 am

KCollins1304 wrote:I can't believe this is as close as it is. There are arms that are very talented in the minors (Sanchez, Melancon, Cox, Horne). Middle relievers emerge from nowhere every year. There are others in the minors that are better than Hawkins and Farnsworth in Patterson, Ramirez, Albawhathisface. ...


:-D ;-D Thanks for the laugh in the middle of all of the seriousness. I actually think Albawhatthisface will be a key part of the Yanks Pen before the year is up.

KCollins1304 wrote:The whole plan is to put him in the rotation around ASB and limit his innings to 140ish, that is the plan I'm on board with if it wasn't evident from my post. ;-D


As a Yankee fan, I'm very happy with that plan as well. It sure is fun watching him in the 7th and 8th inning right now, but it is clear the long term value is if he can be a dominate starter.
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Re: the great joba debate

Postby KCollins1304 » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:29 pm

neoforce wrote:
KCollins1304 wrote:I can't believe this is as close as it is. There are arms that are very talented in the minors (Sanchez, Melancon, Cox, Horne). Middle relievers emerge from nowhere every year. There are others in the minors that are better than Hawkins and Farnsworth in Patterson, Ramirez, Albawhathisface. ...


:-D ;-D Thanks for the laugh in the middle of all of the seriousness. I actually think Albawhatthisface will be a key part of the Yanks Pen before the year is up.


Yeah I have liked what I've seen out of him, I just was too lazy to look up how to spell his name. :-D
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Re: the great joba debate

Postby blankman » Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:05 pm

J.C.Fighter wrote:So you downgrade in relief pitching to bolster the rotation? How sure are you that Joba will still be dominant? Joba doesn't need to be in the rotation right now . It's not like the Yankees rotation is one of the worst in the league. They have a decent 1-4 . NOT GREAT but decent. I just don't see the Yankees ever making the move...


Once you get to the playoffs, a decent rotation gets you no where. Just look at the recent Yankee teams - all had decent rotations, but when the playoffs came, their offense got shut down and they lost games long before the 8th inning when Joba would have pitched. Joba gives you the chance to be winning or close in that game by the 8th that a decent starter doesn't.
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