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the great joba debate

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starter or reliever?

starter
29
69%
reliever
13
31%
 
Total votes : 42

Re: the great joba debate

Postby raygunpunx » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:09 pm

J.C.Fighter wrote:
raygunpunx wrote:
j24jags wrote:I am a firm believer Joba should stay in the pen, he has the stuff to be a perennial closer, and here is how I prove my case to Yankee fans. Would you want the Red Sox to put Papelbon in the rotation? Their immediate answer is yes, I think Joba is very similar to Papelbon in that both had great minor league track records as starters, came up as set-up men and that was thought to be temporary, but they have been too dominant in the pen to change that. Also, the Yanks pen is nothing special. If you take Joba out of the pen who is the 8th inning guy? Farnsworth? If you want to trust Farnsworth during the stretch to seal games, be my guest, but as an objective fan, I think there is nothing better than only needing 7 innings out of a starter or starter and mid reliever then knowing the door will be slammed for the 8th and the 9th (Joba and Mo).


Papelbon and Joba are no where near similar. Papelbon started in middle relief and he became the closer because Boston didn't have anyone to close. Joba has 4 pitches while Papelbon only has 2. In 99.9 percent of cases closers are failed starters. Relief pitchers come and go and new ones are discovered each year. How many dominant top of the rotation starters are there.

Why did the Dbacks beat the Yanks in the 01 series. They had an awful bullpen but they had 2 dominant starters in Johnson and Schilling. The Yankee pen might not be that good right now but they have a ton of very good up and coming arms in the minors. The plan all along was to move him into the rotation around midseason. Why would that change? Is what he is doing surprising anyone? He is supposed to be good.

The Yanks have been losing in the first round recently because they have no top of the rotation starters and now people want to leave this guy in the pen


So who the hell is going to pitch those critical 8th innings? Hawkins ? Fartsworth? Are those two really the guys you want in the 8th? They most likely will be if Joba moves to the rotation...


Olendorf? Sanchez? Melancon? Horne? They have tons of young guys. I was not against starting him in the pen. The point of doing this is twofold. 1 would be to limit his innings. 2 would be to let a couple guys from triple A get more experience and see who has the best stuff as of midseason
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Re: the great joba debate

Postby J.C.Fighter » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:17 pm

Olendorf? Sanchez? Melancon? Horne? They have tons of young guys. I was not against starting him in the pen. The point of doing this is twofold. 1 would be to limit his innings. 2 would be to let a couple guys from triple A get more experience and see who has the best stuff as of midseason



None of those guys have the kind of stuff Joba has. IMO Joba will stay in the bullpen for the rest of the year.
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Re: the great joba debate

Postby Yoda » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:48 pm

I find it amusing how people say the 8th inning is more critical than say the 1st or the 2nd. If your team is not winning the first 7 innings then Joba won't even be pitching in the 8th.

Middle relief is the easiest position to replace. They are dime a dozen. You don't keep one of your best pitchers in middle relief for the 8th inning. That defies logic.
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Re: the great joba debate

Postby J.C.Fighter » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:58 pm

The Yankees have a lineup that's going to score runs and a pitching staff that's going to allow a few runs ... more times than not the Yankees will be up during the 8th inning so it would be wise to have a dominant reliever ready to pitch that inning... not no damn Farnsworth/ Hawkins ....
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Re: the great joba debate

Postby RocketsDWM » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:00 pm

Stays in relief for the rest of his career and eventually becomes a closer when Rivera completely loses it (which may be next year - I'm sure Rivera wouldnt mind setting this kid up).
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Re: the great joba debate

Postby BronXBombers51 » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:16 pm

J.C.Fighter wrote:
Olendorf? Sanchez? Melancon? Horne? They have tons of young guys. I was not against starting him in the pen. The point of doing this is twofold. 1 would be to limit his innings. 2 would be to let a couple guys from triple A get more experience and see who has the best stuff as of midseason



None of those guys have the kind of stuff Joba has. IMO Joba will stay in the bullpen for the rest of the year.


That's why Joba needs to be in the rotation. He's much more valuable as a starter than he would be as a reliever.
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Re: the great joba debate

Postby Grounded Polo » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:20 pm

J.C.Fighter wrote:
Olendorf? Sanchez? Melancon? Horne? They have tons of young guys. I was not against starting him in the pen. The point of doing this is twofold. 1 would be to limit his innings. 2 would be to let a couple guys from triple A get more experience and see who has the best stuff as of midseason



None of those guys have the kind of stuff Joba has. IMO Joba will stay in the bullpen for the rest of the year.


Do you see Chien Ming Wang as the potential ace of a World Series team? They're not going to come close to it with Joba in the bullpen anyway.
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Re: the great joba debate

Postby BronXBombers51 » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:21 pm

J.C.Fighter wrote:The Yankees have a lineup that's going to score runs and a pitching staff that's going to allow a few runs ... more times than not the Yankees will be up during the 8th inning so it would be wise to have a dominant reliever ready to pitch that inning... not no damn Farnsworth/ Hawkins ....


Question:

Why have the Yankees been knocked out of the playoffs in the 1st round for the last 3 years?

Here's a hint: It hasn't been because they were lacking a dominant 8th-inning man. It's because their starting pitchers couldn't hold it together. Randy Johnson killed the Yankees in 2005. Nobody was good in 2006. Wang killed them in 2007.

I'm not saying that having Joba in the 8th isn't nice. It is. But if he can translate some of that to the starting rotation, his value multiplies tremendously. If you honestly believe that he has more value in the 8th inning than he would as a starter, then I'd have to really question your judgment.

As others have mentioned, the Yankees have plenty of other good pitchers in the minor-league system that have the potential to be good middle-relievers. As good as Joba? Obviously not. But that's the reason why Joba needs to get a shot as a starter. He is THAT good.

And to whoever brought up the Papelbon scenario...it's a completely different situation. The Sox didn't have a closer when Papelbon was handed that job. If the Red Sox had Mariano Rivera, then Papelbon would be a starter right now. And he'd likely be more valuable because of it.
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Re: the great joba debate

Postby J.C.Fighter » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:21 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:
J.C.Fighter wrote:
Olendorf? Sanchez? Melancon? Horne? They have tons of young guys. I was not against starting him in the pen. The point of doing this is twofold. 1 would be to limit his innings. 2 would be to let a couple guys from triple A get more experience and see who has the best stuff as of midseason



None of those guys have the kind of stuff Joba has. IMO Joba will stay in the bullpen for the rest of the year.


That's why Joba needs to be in the rotation. He's much more valuable as a starter than he would be as a reliever.


So you downgrade in relief pitching to bolster the rotation? How sure are you that Joba will still be dominant? Joba doesn't need to be in the rotation right now . It's not like the Yankees rotation is one of the worst in the league. They have a decent 1-4 . NOT GREAT but decent. I just don't see the Yankees ever making the move...
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Re: the great joba debate

Postby bigh0rt » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:25 pm

J.C.Fighter wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
J.C.Fighter wrote:None of those guys have the kind of stuff Joba has. IMO Joba will stay in the bullpen for the rest of the year.


That's why Joba needs to be in the rotation. He's much more valuable as a starter than he would be as a reliever.


So you downgrade in relief pitching to bolster the rotation?

If I'm calling the shots, yes, every time. I'm not sold on him joining the Yankee rotation this season, but I want my best arms pitching the most innings, period.
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