the great joba debate - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

the great joba debate

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

starter or reliever?

starter
29
69%
reliever
13
31%
 
Total votes : 42

Re: the great joba debate

Postby blankman » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:11 pm

Starter.

You have to at least see what he's got as a starter. Yes, he's great in the pen and might not be a dominant starter, but you can't let that keep you from finding out.

When Melancon and maybe Sanchez come up, I think the pen will be in decent enough shape for Joba to leave.
blankman
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

Graphics Expert
Posts: 10770
Joined: 6 Jul 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: the great joba debate

Postby jcobb79 » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:30 pm

Yoda wrote:I'd be shocked if the top 4 remain intact. Pettitte and Hughes are injury risks, Kennedy is a soft tosser and Wang is... well Wang. He is not an ace unless he further develops his secondary offerings.

That being said, if half of the rotation fails, then their season will be lost anyway so why not use this year as an opportunity to see what Joba can do? I actually like the idea of switching Kennedy into Joba's role when this happens. I think Kennedy can be a much more effective reliever and transitioning into a set up role shouldn't be that hard.


What exactly makes Pettitte and Hughes and injury risk. The last three seasons Pettitte has started 33, 35, and 34 games with 222, 214, and 215 innings pitched. I know he has had some achs and pains in the spring but that goes for about 25% of SP, I dont think that makes him an injury risk. As for Hughes he pulled a hammy last year, big deal could happen to anybody, the kid has no other injury history to speak of and is no more of a risk than any other pitcher in the majors. As far as Kennedy being a soft tosser it work out pretty good for Mussina early in his career. Lets look at Kennedy's pro numbers from 2007, his first pitching professionally, A 6-1 1.29 ERA, AA 5-1 2.59 ERA, AAA 1-1 2.08 ERA, with the Yanks 1-0, 1.89 ERA in 3 starts 19 IP. Those numbers seem to be pretty decent to me across all levels. Grant it I do not that he is going to be as good as Hughes or Joba but he is a lot better than what he showed in his first start this season. And "Wang is Wang" well I will take 38 wins and a 3.65 ERA over the past two season and have no complaints. While here at the Cafe Wang gets a lot of crap about not getting K's it seem to be working out in real life for him. Finally the yankees staff does not have to be great their offense will get thing going, just like the Tigers will, and score 5-6 runs a game so all the need is average production from their rotation. As far as Joba goes he will be in the pen until they have to have him because right now if the Yankees are leading after 7 innings the game is over with Joba and Mo and that is a damn good feeling.
Image
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." Frank Sinatra
jcobb79
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar
Mock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 627
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Somewhere pretty pretty pretty good

Re: the great joba debate

Postby Yoda » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:44 pm

jcobb79 wrote:
Yoda wrote:I'd be shocked if the top 4 remain intact. Pettitte and Hughes are injury risks, Kennedy is a soft tosser and Wang is... well Wang. He is not an ace unless he further develops his secondary offerings.

That being said, if half of the rotation fails, then their season will be lost anyway so why not use this year as an opportunity to see what Joba can do? I actually like the idea of switching Kennedy into Joba's role when this happens. I think Kennedy can be a much more effective reliever and transitioning into a set up role shouldn't be that hard.


What exactly makes Pettitte and Hughes and injury risk. The last three seasons Pettitte has started 33, 35, and 34 games with 222, 214, and 215 innings pitched. I know he has had some achs and pains in the spring but that goes for about 25% of SP, I dont think that makes him an injury risk. As for Hughes he pulled a hammy last year, big deal could happen to anybody, the kid has no other injury history to speak of and is no more of a risk than any other pitcher in the majors. As far as Kennedy being a soft tosser it work out pretty good for Mussina early in his career. Lets look at Kennedy pro numbers from 2007, his first pitching professionally, A 6-1 1.29 ERA, AA 5-1 2.59 ERA, AAA 1-1 2.08 ERA, with the Yanks 1-0, 1.89 ERA in 3 starts 19 IP. Those numbers seem to be pretty decent to me across all levels. Grant it I do not that he is going to be as good as Hughes or Joba but he is a lot better than what he showed in his first start this season. And "Wang is Wang" well I will take 38 wins and a 3.65 ERA over the past two season and have no complaints. While here at the Cafe Wang gets a lot of crap about not getting K's it seem to be working out in real life for him. Finally the yankees staff does not have to be great there offense will get thing going, just like the Tigers will, and score 5-6 runs a game so all the need is average production from their rotation. As far as Joba goes he will be in the pen until they have to have him because right now if the Yankees are leading after 7 innings the game is over with Joba and Mo and that is a damn good feeling.


Pettitte mainly age and he has been hurting all spring. Hughes was always a health risk. They babied him in the minors and he spent half of his rookie year on the DL. So yes, they are both injury risks IMO unless they prove otherwise.

I think you are exaggerating Kennedy's natural abilities. Kennedy does not have nearly the repertoire that Mussina had earlier in his career. They are not close right now. Mussina would be the absolute best case scenario for Ian. I think Mussina is a better comp for Hughes anyway.

You'd rather get 70 IP out of Joba rather than 200 IP a year? How is that a good thing?
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
Yoda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 21344
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 15th green...

Re: the great joba debate

Postby jfg » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:52 pm

It's shocking when any team retains all 5 starters for a whole season without one going down for at least a month. Joba will get a chance and if he is amazing they're going to have a hard time pulling him out of the rotation. I can't imagine that he won't get at least five starts.
Image
jfg
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicGolden Eagle EyeMatchup Meltdown SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly WinnerTrivia Time Trial Monthly Winner
Posts: 6078
(Past Year: 83)
Joined: 4 Nov 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: the great joba debate

Postby MTUCache » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:59 pm

Yoda wrote:...I'm a big proponent of using a pitcher as a starter if you can. I believe that getting 200+ quality innings is probably much more important than 80 dominant innings...


In real baseball? Yes.
In fantasy? Not a chance.

I'm not the least bit interested in yet another 200+ inning-eater who gets me completely average stats. If I can get 70-80 dominant innings out of a guy, and either bench, cut, or trade him, I'm extremely pleased. Especially if they're completely scheduled, predictable innings that I barely have to touch my roster to get.

That being said, I do think Joba should be in the rotation for the Yanks, as they've got an abundance of risky-arms going, and another one couldn't hurt. If for no other reason than to give them one more dart to throw at the board, hoping something will stick.

As for fantasy, I think he was severely over-rated this year... his value as a 70-80IP is still high, but other equivalent guys are going in the 18th round or later. Without getting either more dominant innings (or getting a shot at saves), he's not even close to a 13-15th round value.
MTUCache
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1284
Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: the great joba debate

Postby j24jags » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:42 pm

I am a firm believer Joba should stay in the pen, he has the stuff to be a perennial closer, and here is how I prove my case to Yankee fans. Would you want the Red Sox to put Papelbon in the rotation? Their immediate answer is yes, I think Joba is very similar to Papelbon in that both had great minor league track records as starters, came up as set-up men and that was thought to be temporary, but they have been too dominant in the pen to change that. Also, the Yanks pen is nothing special. If you take Joba out of the pen who is the 8th inning guy? Farnsworth? If you want to trust Farnsworth during the stretch to seal games, be my guest, but as an objective fan, I think there is nothing better than only needing 7 innings out of a starter or starter and mid reliever then knowing the door will be slammed for the 8th and the 9th (Joba and Mo).
Image
j24jags
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 10340
(Past Year: 1)
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: the great joba debate

Postby J.C.Fighter » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:50 pm

IMO There is no debate . Joba will be a reliever for the rest of the year. He is DOMINANT in his role. You don't mess with that.
J.C.Fighter
Major League Manager
Major League Manager


Posts: 1620
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: the great joba debate

Postby Another Blown Save » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:54 pm

The way the team is built right now, I'd say that Joba has to be in the bullpen.
The best move would have been to sign/trade for a better middle reliever than Hawkins and put Joba in the rotation, but since they failed to do so, they need him there.
Mat Latos - Sponsored by the Fantasy Baseball Cafe!
Another Blown Save
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe MusketeerPick 3 Weekly WinnerSweet 16 SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly WinnerTrivia Time Trial Monthly Winner
Posts: 5385
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: the great joba debate

Postby raygunpunx » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:02 pm

j24jags wrote:I am a firm believer Joba should stay in the pen, he has the stuff to be a perennial closer, and here is how I prove my case to Yankee fans. Would you want the Red Sox to put Papelbon in the rotation? Their immediate answer is yes, I think Joba is very similar to Papelbon in that both had great minor league track records as starters, came up as set-up men and that was thought to be temporary, but they have been too dominant in the pen to change that. Also, the Yanks pen is nothing special. If you take Joba out of the pen who is the 8th inning guy? Farnsworth? If you want to trust Farnsworth during the stretch to seal games, be my guest, but as an objective fan, I think there is nothing better than only needing 7 innings out of a starter or starter and mid reliever then knowing the door will be slammed for the 8th and the 9th (Joba and Mo).


Papelbon and Joba are no where near similar. Papelbon started in middle relief and he became the closer because Boston didn't have anyone to close. Joba has 4 pitches while Papelbon only has 2. In 99.9 percent of cases closers are failed starters. Relief pitchers come and go and new ones are discovered each year. How many dominant top of the rotation starters are there.

Why did the Dbacks beat the Yanks in the 01 series. They had an awful bullpen but they had 2 dominant starters in Johnson and Schilling. The Yankee pen might not be that good right now but they have a ton of very good up and coming arms in the minors. The plan all along was to move him into the rotation around midseason. Why would that change? Is what he is doing surprising anyone? He is supposed to be good.

The Yanks have been losing in the first round recently because they have no top of the rotation starters and now people want to leave this guy in the pen
raygunpunx
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 574
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: the great joba debate

Postby J.C.Fighter » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:06 pm

raygunpunx wrote:
j24jags wrote:I am a firm believer Joba should stay in the pen, he has the stuff to be a perennial closer, and here is how I prove my case to Yankee fans. Would you want the Red Sox to put Papelbon in the rotation? Their immediate answer is yes, I think Joba is very similar to Papelbon in that both had great minor league track records as starters, came up as set-up men and that was thought to be temporary, but they have been too dominant in the pen to change that. Also, the Yanks pen is nothing special. If you take Joba out of the pen who is the 8th inning guy? Farnsworth? If you want to trust Farnsworth during the stretch to seal games, be my guest, but as an objective fan, I think there is nothing better than only needing 7 innings out of a starter or starter and mid reliever then knowing the door will be slammed for the 8th and the 9th (Joba and Mo).


Papelbon and Joba are no where near similar. Papelbon started in middle relief and he became the closer because Boston didn't have anyone to close. Joba has 4 pitches while Papelbon only has 2. In 99.9 percent of cases closers are failed starters. Relief pitchers come and go and new ones are discovered each year. How many dominant top of the rotation starters are there.

Why did the Dbacks beat the Yanks in the 01 series. They had an awful bullpen but they had 2 dominant starters in Johnson and Schilling. The Yankee pen might not be that good right now but they have a ton of very good up and coming arms in the minors. The plan all along was to move him into the rotation around midseason. Why would that change? Is what he is doing surprising anyone? He is supposed to be good.

The Yanks have been losing in the first round recently because they have no top of the rotation starters and now people want to leave this guy in the pen


So who the hell is going to pitch those critical 8th innings? Hawkins ? Fartsworth? Are those two really the guys you want in the 8th? They most likely will be if Joba moves to the rotation...
J.C.Fighter
Major League Manager
Major League Manager


Posts: 1620
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact