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Rich Harden.....

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Re: Rich Harden.....

Postby AllDay » Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:34 am

ROC AllStars wrote:I don't care how good he is. He will never be on my roster again. You might as well pick up Prior and Wood to have the most dominant DL ever...


What is.... 'Things people used to say about Josh Beckett'?
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Re: Rich Harden.....

Postby Wrangor » Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:57 am

I took Harden in what is the equivalent of the 18th round in my keeper league (12 keepers and I took him in the 6th round). In a H2H league, Harden is a GREAT late value, because you don't need consistency in H2H - you need greatness. Your first tier pitchers should be your consistent guys, and your late guys should be high upside guys. If you play the matchups right, and get a few lucky hits like Harden, you will dominate your pitching stats. Let the other guys fill out their 6th-8th starters with Mark Buerhle, Dontrelle Willis, and other low upside starters, and you grab some high upside guys like I did (Harden, Parra, Greinke) and hope 1 or 2 of them pans out. If they do, you will be golden.
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Re: Rich Harden.....

Postby ROC AllStars » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:02 pm

AllDay wrote:
ROC AllStars wrote:I don't care how good he is. He will never be on my roster again. You might as well pick up Prior and Wood to have the most dominant DL ever...


What is.... 'Things people used to say about Josh Beckett'?


I think this is a silly comparison. Lets look at the numbers.

Beckett after first 4 full seasons (2002-2005):
102 games
3 seasons with 24 or more starts (4th was 23)

Harden after first 4 full seasons (2004-2007):
69 games
1 season with 24 or more starts

There is a HUGE difference between having seasons shortened to 23 games and having seasons shortened to 7 or 9 games. So bottom line, if and when people DID say that about Josh Beckett, they had significantly less facts to back themselves up. Yes, Harden might have a great season, might finally fulfill all of his promise, and is probably worth a very late pickup, as long as you are counting on him for NOTHING but gravy. But that statement has a lot of "ifs" and "mights". The guy is just downright fragile.
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Re: Rich Harden.....

Postby AllDay » Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:18 pm

ROC AllStars wrote:
AllDay wrote:
ROC AllStars wrote:I don't care how good he is. He will never be on my roster again. You might as well pick up Prior and Wood to have the most dominant DL ever...


What is.... 'Things people used to say about Josh Beckett'?


I think this is a silly comparison. Lets look at the numbers.

Beckett after first 4 full seasons (2002-2005):
102 games
3 seasons with 24 or more starts (4th was 23)

Harden after first 4 full seasons (2004-2007):
69 games
1 season with 24 or more starts

There is a HUGE difference between having seasons shortened to 23 games and having seasons shortened to 7 or 9 games. So bottom line, if and when people DID say that about Josh Beckett, they had significantly less facts to back themselves up. Yes, Harden might have a great season, might finally fulfill all of his promise, and is probably worth a very late pickup, as long as you are counting on him for NOTHING but gravy. But that statement has a lot of "ifs" and "mights". The guy is just downright fragile.


I'm not arguing his past - I'm just pointing out many players shed the 'injury prone' tag to perform well.

Beckett certainly had similar sentiments out there from people who got burned by drafting him too early. It's not like I'm imagining the Blister Beckett nametag that was placed upon him. The same things I read about Harden today were said about Beckett.

I actually like the fact that people get all angry at players and refuse to own them. You can get some nice bargains that way.
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Re: Rich Harden.....

Postby ROC AllStars » Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:05 pm

AllDay wrote:I'm not arguing his past - I'm just pointing out many players shed the 'injury prone' tag to perform well.

Beckett certainly had similar sentiments out there from people who got burned by drafting him too early. It's not like I'm imagining the Blister Beckett nametag that was placed upon him. The same things I read about Harden today were said about Beckett.

I actually like the fact that people get all angry at players and refuse to own them. You can get some nice bargains that way.



Point taken on the bargain prices. But buyer beware, Harden's small frame and delivery style significantly increase his risk of injury. He needs to learn to pitch with his body, not against it. The reason I won't own him is not anger, it it prudence. Lets wait until he gets to double digits in games before getting all hot and bothered about his talent. But again, point taken on the bargain.
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Re: Rich Harden.....

Postby candyman » Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:00 pm

ROC AllStars wrote:
AllDay wrote:I'm not arguing his past - I'm just pointing out many players shed the 'injury prone' tag to perform well.

Beckett certainly had similar sentiments out there from people who got burned by drafting him too early. It's not like I'm imagining the Blister Beckett nametag that was placed upon him. The same things I read about Harden today were said about Beckett.

I actually like the fact that people get all angry at players and refuse to own them. You can get some nice bargains that way.



Point taken on the bargain prices. But buyer beware, Harden's small frame and delivery style significantly increase his risk of injury. He needs to learn to pitch with his body, not against it. The reason I won't own him is not anger, it it prudence. Lets wait until he gets to double digits in games before getting all hot and bothered about his talent. But again, point taken on the bargain.


I agree with both of you guys... Rich Harden was not a guy I was going to spend an early draft pick on...

However, when the rest of my league was grabbing the scraps listed at the top of ESPN's rankings in the last round of our draft, I scrolled way down and grabbed Harden...

Even if he only gives me a handful of good to great starts, it was still worth it... 5 starts of Rich Harden is more valuable than some WW guy i woulda grabbed in the last round
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Re: Rich Harden.....

Postby Mashug » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:14 pm

He was just dropped in my league and I have the number 1 WW priority. Can't pass that up!
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Re: Rich Harden.....

Postby bracesj » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:17 pm

I wouldn't take the chance on Harden personally. I was in a draft where a guy took him 9th round, and I couldn't help but doubt the sanity of the guy. THere's too much risk involved with Harden. Where have we seen starts by Harden similar to this one? Try April 2005 and April 2006, both of which he started 2-0 and 3-0 respectively, only to end up on the DL in the beginning of May. Do your team some justice and don't draft Harden, he's only going to cause you headaches of when he will actually start.
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Re: Rich Harden.....

Postby Mashug » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:26 pm

As a draft pick, I agree. As a WW pickup, it's more than worth the risk. If he can stay off the DL until the all star break I will have accumulated excellent roto stats. Hey, maybe this is the year he stays healthy. I do agree that he's not worth trading away good players for, or wasting on a draft pick before the late rounds.
Last edited by Mashug on Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rich Harden.....

Postby Southpawo5 » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:15 am

I'm an A's fan and have followed Harden since he first came up. First off, fantasy wise, I would only take him late, but I play in a fantasy league with several other A's fans and hes usually gone by the 12/13 round.

Anyways, during spring Curt Young(A's pitching coach) noticed a slight change or compensation in his delivery compared to where it was a few years ago. I guess they actually looked at tapes of when Harden first came up and now he's made a slight tweak in his delivery which will hopefully help.

Also, supposedly he's going to scale his fastball back a bit. In years past he's worked with his fastball in the 95-98 mph range(sometimes topping out even higher), with his changup around 87 and his split around 83. Now supposedly the fastball will be sitting in more the 93-96 range to try and minimize the torqe on his arm. I believe in the Sox game he topped out at about 96.

Also he only threw fastballs and changeups in that game. Ortiz and several other red sox commented that his split and slider were amazing, but both Harden and the A's coaches confirmed he was only throwing his fastball and change. He's one of those rare pitchers that can survive and thrive on just two offerings. Thats how nasty his stuff is.

With all that being said, as a life long A's fan I have developed EXTREMELY low expectations for both Harden and Crosby. I go into the season not expecting much from either. If either guy stays healthy/contributes for a significant amount of time, I consider that a pleasant surprise and nice bonus to the team. The inability of these 2 to say healthy are main reasons Swisher and Haren are no longer on the team.
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