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Postby HOOTIE » Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:17 am

Lofunzo wrote: All that I said was that if I needed a hit late in the game, I would feel good if Jeter was up. You can give me all of the stats that you want. It's a subjective thing.


Of course you would feel good. Jeter is a good hitter. And in a given situation over time, he will hit like Jeter.
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Postby HOOTIE » Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:34 am

KULCAT wrote:I dont buy into this no clutch thing. In everyday life there are people who reguarly do better than others on pressure situations so why wouldnt this happen on baseball? I just see it as something more difficult to do. Kirk Gibson homer in the 9º against the top closer in baseball is not the same as in the second against an SP who knows the rest of the inning give him some margin of error.
Hitting 3 homers in a regular season game? Blauser, Hollandsworth, cameron(4 actually). Hitting 3 in the world series? Gets you called Mr October. If its the post season on the classic tight situation(9 inning etc..) Would rather have Reggie Jackson or Dave Winfield who used to be called MR March i think. Id go with the proven guy and i dont have to have their bpi´s to make that choice. If it was all by numbers the stat guys would never be wrong and thats not the case. It might be educated guesses but its still a guess.


Gibson had a big hit. Has he shown the ability to do it time and time again? If you are going to reward for clutch hits, why don't you subtract for the times in the situation he failed? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Is it really a surprise that a guy (Reggie) with nearly 600 hrs, hit 3 hrs in all the post season games he played? But you expect guys like Blauser too?
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Postby HOOTIE » Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:45 am

How did bowling get in here? Anyways, Pro bowlers are athletes. This notion that you have to play other sports well to be a athlete, would eliminate every sport. Place kickers are such fine athletes right? I would love to see Shaq turn on a fastball, Edgar go full court.

4 stands for football/bb/basketball/hockey.

The pressure in the PBA is unlike guaranteed sports (4). As a pro bowler, you have to drive to each tournament, unlike getting free transportation in the big (4). You have a entry fee ($300) i believe, for each tournament, unlike the big (4). MLB gives meal $, and a base salary of $200,000. In the PBA, if you make $30,000 for the year, you are in the red (about $40,000 needed to break even). There's pressure in all sports, but the elimination pressure in bowling, the idea you lost $1,200 that week, that bills are due, and no guaranteed $ coming in, is more telling imo. Tom Candiotti was on the PBA last week. He said the pressure in bowling was much tougher.
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Postby Guest » Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:01 am

HOOTIE wrote:
KULCAT wrote:I dont buy into this no clutch thing. In everyday life there are people who reguarly do better than others on pressure situations so why wouldnt this happen on baseball? I just see it as something more difficult to do. Kirk Gibson homer in the 9º against the top closer in baseball is not the same as in the second against an SP who knows the rest of the inning give him some margin of error.
Hitting 3 homers in a regular season game? Blauser, Hollandsworth, cameron(4 actually). Hitting 3 in the world series? Gets you called Mr October. If its the post season on the classic tight situation(9 inning etc..) Would rather have Reggie Jackson or Dave Winfield who used to be called MR March i think. Id go with the proven guy and i dont have to have their bpi´s to make that choice. If it was all by numbers the stat guys would never be wrong and thats not the case. It might be educated guesses but its still a guess.


Gibson had a big hit. Has he shown the ability to do it time and time again? If you are going to reward for clutch hits, why don't you subtract for the times in the situation he failed? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Is it really a surprise that a guy (Reggie) with nearly 600 hrs, hit 3 hrs in all the post season games he played? But you expect guys like Blauser too?


I didnt say he was clutch hitter. I stated 2 points. 1- Its not the same if he had hitted in 2 inning like someone stated 2- I rather have him than a guy with similar stats because of that experience. Its not that i know its gonna work but do you honestly believe a guy who´d gone through that experienced its not gonna have al least some advantage over a a guy who´s gone 0-4 in the same situations? Its pretty simple to me.
There are other guys who have numbers similar too Jackson and dont have 3 homers in a game. Is it really a surprise? Yes hitting 3 homers in a game is NEVER expected not even from Bonds or Ruth. If it happens its easier to understand but not expected. Specially in the world series. If it was so easy then why havent seen more no hitters in a world series. There have certainly been better pitchers in the WS than Don Larsen.
As for Jeter being a clutch hitter as of right now i say now because of his overall numbers but 1-4 with a game winning homer might be .250 but still one the game. So that would be an example of a player coming up in the most important situation. Is not that i think certain players will always have better stats just because they have done it in the past but if again my point is if you were to pick between 2 guys who have similar numbers wouldnt you go with the guy who has been in similar situations and has excelled?
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Postby KULCAT » Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:02 am

That was me by the way
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Postby Mookie4ever » Sun Feb 22, 2004 8:20 am

wrveres wrote:everything I know about bowling is in this here documentary ..

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You should do some more research. I just saw The Big Lebowski again last night - less bowling but a better movie.

We should all respond to life's problems the way John Goodman does "Let's go bowling".

btw - Madison - do you still bowl for fun or is it like hookers and sex (or gynecologists and...oh you get the picture) where it has become work and not fun anymore?
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Postby Mookie4ever » Sun Feb 22, 2004 8:46 am

At the risk of prolonging this discussion (that I pray dies out soon) let me ask a question.

My parents were over for dinner last night and my Dad and I got into a discussion about good ole Canadian boy Eric Gagne. He wanted to know why he doesn't pitch more and I told him that it is because the Dodgers will generally not put him out there unless it is a save situation.

"Stupid" he said - why don't they pitch him in any situation, why not even in the first inning. If he is their best pitcher, shouldn't they play him as much as they can? Why even have a save cat?

Well first of all he sucked as a starter. Secondly, the first inning is not as urgent as the ninth. You don't know if the game is on the line in the first, nobody pulls the infield in in the first.

Some players excel in these situations some don't. A lot of good pitchers have flamed out as closers. It takes more than a good fastball and a splitter to be a closer. As a great man once said this game is 90% mental the other 50% is physical.

My question is - why is there a separate saves cat? and are closers a different breed of player? Are they clutch?
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Postby wrveres » Sun Feb 22, 2004 8:56 am

Mookie4ever wrote:At the risk of prolonging this discussion (that I pray dies out soon) let me ask a question.


My question is - why is there a separate saves cat? and are closers a different breed of player? Are they clutch?


Didn't YOU start this thread ? lol :-D



Secondly ... No.

That would be the equivlant of saying John Vanderwal (Career Pinch Hitter)is clutch, because he only gets to bat in late inning pressure situations. Granted he has a greater chance of failure than the Closer does, but its their job.

I can honestly say, I have never heard the word "Clutch Closer" as in Gagne is a Clutch Closer. I understand that some people can deal with the pressure better than others, but I can't see where that makes him "Clutch"
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Postby Mookie4ever » Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:33 am

wrveres wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:At the risk of prolonging this discussion (that I pray dies out soon) let me ask a question.


My question is - why is there a separate saves cat? and are closers a different breed of player? Are they clutch?


Didn't YOU start this thread ? lol :-D



Secondly ... No.

That would be the equivlant of saying John Vanderwal (Career Pinch Hitter)is clutch, because he only gets to bat in late inning pressure situations. Granted he has a greater chance of failure than the Closer does, but its their job.

I can honestly say, I have never heard the word "Clutch Closer" as in Gagne is a Clutch Closer. I understand that some people can deal with the pressure better than others, but I can't see where that makes him "Clutch"


Did I?
I am really, really sorry about that.

As for closers, I am not saying that there are clutch closers, I asking whether pitchers are turned into closers, in part at least, because they are clutch performers.

Pointing to Gagne's record as a starter is not usefull but Jeff Shaw, Mark Davis and Jose Mesa were below average as starters.

Maybe you are right and Derek Lowe, Eck and Smoltz would be good no matter when they pitched (but I still would not put BY Kim on the mound if there was anything more than a Snickers on the line).
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:43 am

Sojo is an absolutely horrible example.....We never played him as our starting 2nd baseman. We played him to give guys the day off or as a pinch hitter. The 2B's for our world championships were as follows:

96-Mariano Duncan/Pat Kelly
98-Chuck Knoblauch
99-Chuck Knoblauch
00-Chuck Knoblauch
01-Alfonso Soriano

Sojo was nothing to the team as what Jeter is. And it's an even worse analogy because Soriano is a horrible fielder too. A-Rod to Jeter as Soriano to Sojo? Sorry, I'm just not getting it.

We aren't at the point where we NEED to move Jeter like we were with Knoblauch. He went from being a Gold Glover to throwing the ball into the stands every time you turned your head. Jeter is still a solid shortstop....not A-Rod, but he certainly makes more plays than he blows. We can win with Jeter at short and A-Rod at third so I don't understand what the big deal is. Plus if you've listened to A-Rod recently he sound 100% set on being the third baseman which makes us Yankee fans happy. ;-D
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