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Define Clutch

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Postby fantasy_gamer » Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:35 pm

Clutch....

Can I have the definition?
Could you put that in a sentence?
Could I have the origin of the word?
Are there any other pronounciations of the word?
Are there any other definitions?

C-L.....

Could you repeat the word again?
What part of speech is it?

C-L-U-T-C-H

Clutch...
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Postby mkooljr1 » Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:36 pm

There is more to life than statistics.


Sure, but when you are arguing about someone being clutch, and the stats say he isn't, than all that matters are the stats.

That is the only reason I defend him when people say he should move. I agree A-Rod would be better but Jeter earned his spot.


How did A-Rod get into this convo? We're talking about Jeter being clutch, not whether he should move. Oh yeah, i mentioned Jeter's defense. How did Jeter earn his spot? Playing bad defense doesn't earn you a spot. Should he play catcher coz he has won you championships? Of course not, so that shouldnt be a reason to keep him at a position that he plays poorly.

Also, I said I'd feel the most comfortable with Jeter up there in that spot. I didn't say he'd definately succeed. Trans proved me somewhat wrong on that.


Why would you feel most comfortable with Jeter? If you want the player who's up to get on base, wouldn't you want the player who's the best at doing so?!? Trans proved you wrong, you even admit, yet you STILL prefer the worse hitter. Man oh man, Yankees fans just don't give it up no matter how many facts proving them wrong you throw at them!!
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:16 pm

mkooljr1 wrote:
There is more to life than statistics.


Sure, but when you are arguing about someone being clutch, and the stats say he isn't, than all that matters are the stats.

That is the only reason I defend him when people say he should move. I agree A-Rod would be better but Jeter earned his spot.


How did A-Rod get into this convo? We're talking about Jeter being clutch, not whether he should move. Oh yeah, i mentioned Jeter's defense. How did Jeter earn his spot? Playing bad defense doesn't earn you a spot. Should he play catcher coz he has won you championships? Of course not, so that shouldnt be a reason to keep him at a position that he plays poorly.

Also, I said I'd feel the most comfortable with Jeter up there in that spot. I didn't say he'd definately succeed. Trans proved me somewhat wrong on that.


Why would you feel most comfortable with Jeter? If you want the player who's up to get on base, wouldn't you want the player who's the best at doing so?!? Trans proved you wrong, you even admit, yet you STILL prefer the worse hitter. Man oh man, Yankees fans just don't give it up no matter how many facts proving them wrong you throw at them!!


I'm done in this thread. I've had enough talking about this clutch stuff...its getting old to me. Obviously people don't get it. Trans proved me wrong about Jeter being a clutch hitter. Doesn't mean he's never clutch. Nobody is always clutch. However I am searching for the post 4 years ago "close and late" stats for Jeter.

Your way off on the defense issue...Why does catcher fit into anything here? Jeter is a shortstop not a catcher. Move him to catcher because he helped us win? You're trying to be sarcastic here and it's just not working.

Jeter has not cost the Yankees a title with his defense at short. So there is no reason to believe he will now. He is the captain and shortstop is his position. He earned his spot because he led this team to 4 world series titles.

This thread isn't about defense and who should play there so that's all I will say about it. Other than that I'm through arguing about clutch. Trans proved me wrong which he was trying to do and I accept that. Credit to Trans.
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Postby Lofunzo » Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:09 pm

mkooljr1 wrote:I wasn't going to get into this thread, but after reading some quotes, i had to. ajgdrummer7 says:
No I was basically just referring to him being clutch in the postseason. It's hard to argue with stats, though I'd like to see them before 4 years ago. However I still believe clutch exists.
As am I. The stats may say otherwise but I know if I need a hit Jeet is the guy I want at the plate.


Wow, typical Yankees fan. "The stats say he has sucked in the postseason, but screw them, stats don't mean anything, he's clutch because i say he is!" It's the same argument about Jeter's defense. Every possible defensive metric or stat you wanna look at says Jeter is a poor fielder, but of course every Yankees fan will say "screw the stats, i actually watch him play, and what i see is more important than what any statistic tells me, so i say he's the best fielder in baseball". I'm not going to present any more evidence, because it has already been shown. If you wanna argue that a .586 OPS in postseason "close and late" situations is clutch, then argue till your blue in the face, because we'll all just be laughing at you. And i apologize for saying "every Yankees fan" and thereby including all you Yankees fans who are knowledgeable and know the truth.


All that I said was that if I needed a hit late in the game, I would feel good if Jeter was up. You can give me all of the stats that you want. It's a subjective thing. And, I am of the belief that Jeter's defense has diminished and that A-Rod should be the SS. That said, it's hard to ask the captain and producer of numerous championships to move for the new guy.
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Postby KULCAT » Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:21 pm

I dont buy into this no clutch thing. In everyday life there are people who reguarly do better than others on pressure situations so why wouldnt this happen on baseball? I just see it as something more difficult to do. Kirk Gibson homer in the 9º against the top closer in baseball is not the same as in the second against an SP who knows the rest of the inning give him some margin of error.
Hitting 3 homers in a regular season game? Blauser, Hollandsworth, cameron(4 actually). Hitting 3 in the world series? Gets you called Mr October. If its the post season on the classic tight situation(9 inning etc..) Would rather have Reggie Jackson or Dave Winfield who used to be called MR March i think. Id go with the proven guy and i dont have to have their bpi´s to make that choice. If it was all by numbers the stat guys would never be wrong and thats not the case. It might be educated guesses but its still a guess.
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Postby Lofunzo » Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:35 pm

mkooljr1 wrote:By the way ajgdrummer7, would you mind telling me how old you are? I'm quite curious.


I was wondering the same thing about you. I am curious as to whether I have passed the age where I will be argumentative and critical about everything or if I have that to look forward to when I get older. :-D
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:52 pm

Lofunzo wrote:
mkooljr1 wrote:I wasn't going to get into this thread, but after reading some quotes, i had to. ajgdrummer7 says:
No I was basically just referring to him being clutch in the postseason. It's hard to argue with stats, though I'd like to see them before 4 years ago. However I still believe clutch exists.
As am I. The stats may say otherwise but I know if I need a hit Jeet is the guy I want at the plate.


Wow, typical Yankees fan. "The stats say he has sucked in the postseason, but screw them, stats don't mean anything, he's clutch because i say he is!" It's the same argument about Jeter's defense. Every possible defensive metric or stat you wanna look at says Jeter is a poor fielder, but of course every Yankees fan will say "screw the stats, i actually watch him play, and what i see is more important than what any statistic tells me, so i say he's the best fielder in baseball". I'm not going to present any more evidence, because it has already been shown. If you wanna argue that a .586 OPS in postseason "close and late" situations is clutch, then argue till your blue in the face, because we'll all just be laughing at you. And i apologize for saying "every Yankees fan" and thereby including all you Yankees fans who are knowledgeable and know the truth.


All that I said was that if I needed a hit late in the game, I would feel good if Jeter was up. You can give me all of the stats that you want. It's a subjective thing. And, I am of the belief that Jeter's defense has diminished and that A-Rod should be the SS. That said, it's hard to ask the captain and producer of numerous championships to move for the new guy.


exactly... maybe i took this too far in my arguement with trans and begin to make myself think jeter was more of a clutch player than he is. my bad :-D .
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Postby NZF » Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:57 am

Madison wrote:
New Zealand Fan wrote:I find it even more unbelievable that I need to explain why. You really expect anyone with a shread of intelligence to believe that a bowler playing for food to put in his mouth in front of a handful of spectators, most of whom are also competing, and in front of a delayed TV audience of a few thousand, is under more pressure to perform than a baseball player who "at best" is having his every move analyzed, in the main critically by millions of people, and just because that baseball player is already wealthy.


That's about what I expected. Just misinformed a little. The majority of the audience is not good enough to compete with the pros and it's more than a handful. Every show is sold out and that's why they now have built an arena to host most of the telecasts. As to the TV audience, it's a whole lot bigger than a few thousand. Bowling is the second most played sport in the world (Golf is #1). There are participants from all over the world for the pro tour. Plenty of viewers and growing every year.


Not I'm not misinformed here at all. I bowled competitively for four years on a strictly amateur basis and experienced first hand the pressures on a bowler when stepping up in the 10th frame. Even if it was only to win a trophy or a championship title. I realise bowling is a huge particpation sport at strictly a social level but you are using this as an argument for the size of a TV audience. Playing it is great, however watching the sport is about as exciting as watching paint dry, thus the reason it is no longer shown on TV here after previously been shown often free to air. Ratings did not warrant it, although participation numbers continue to grow here on a social basis. The participation appeal is large because it is a game both a young child and a grandmother can be involved in at the same time.

I've also played professional rugby at an equivalent level in baseball terms of say Single or perhaps Double A for five years. I earned a reasonable income doing so and as the majority of the contract I was on was performance based the pressure was always on to be at my very best every game. A good friend of mine whom I still see regularly played with me earlier on but advanced to international level after two years. The very pinnacle of the sport in this country. He was guaranteed 250 K a season with the benefit of performance bonuses added in (which was very good money for rugby five years ago) he tells me often the single biggest reason he played international rugby for only that season was the public expectation of him to perform. He found it too much to cope with and as with others like him his form suffered and he was again relegated to minor levels. Rugby, you may or may not be aware is like a religion in this country. Every game, every player is analyzed repeatedly as with baseball and football in the U.S. With the population so much smaller though it is a difficult place to escape attention. Players are recognised everywhere they go, in all walks of life and for some this exposure and constant public scutiny is very hard and sometimes too much to cope with.

I find it very hard to accept what you say and believe the pressure situation for baseball players and football players in your part of the world and for that matter all over the world in other high profile sports that have a passionate spectatator following, is huge. Consider for a minute the Colombian soccer player who missed a crucial penalty that lost an international for his country a few years ago. Sure you say there was no pressure on him because he had a guaranteed 5 million dollar contract in his back pocket, but I've got an idea he was feeling the pressure alright and feeling it more than ever when he was shot in the head at point blank range by an unforgiving fan later that night. Unfortunately this was not an isolated incident.
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Postby Madison » Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:20 am

New Zealand Fan it seems we are starting to get on the same page. Sorry to hear that ratings were that bad over there, but here in the states the current ratings for the PBA telecasts are setting new records for themselves. They are growing faster than expected since the new owners took over.

Just want to clear up one thing though:

New Zealand Fan wrote:Sure you say there was no pressure on him because he had a guaranteed 5 million dollar contract in his back pocket,


I didn't say there was no pressure, quite the opposite:

Madison wrote:Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that ballplayers don't have any pressure. There is pressure in any sort of competition. Doesn't matter if it's the Underwater Basket Weaving World Champoinships, there is still pressure on the participants. It's just a little easier when money isn't an issue.


I agree there's pressure on everyone. I'm just saying that it is a little easier when money isn't a factor due to a guaranteed contract.

The only point I started off with was that I don't feel someone is "clutch" simply because they do the job that they are paid to do.
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Postby Madison » Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:32 am

Absolutely Adequate wrote:Hey, Madison- I'm sorry for making fun of bowling. It was only meant to be friendly ribbing.


No problem here. :-)

I really don't get upset about it because most people are unaware of what kind of preparation it takes to do what guys who earn a living bowling do. Most people see a bowler on a TV show or movie and he's fat and out of shape and that's what they believe competitive bowlers are like. That would be equivalent to seeing David Wells pitch and then say that ballplayers are not athletes. It's just not accurate.

Unfortunately, until the pro tour gains more audience (which is happening very quickly), then the stigma that bowlers are not athletes will continue. Just one of those facts of life that I know I cannot change. I do point out that bowlers really are athletes, contrary to popular belief though. ;-)

Anyway, like I said, no problems here. :-)
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