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Define Clutch

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Define Clutch

Postby Mookie4ever » Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:04 pm

We have been having a moderately interesting discussion about clutch ballplayers (if you are interested it is in the "how long til Jeter plays third" thread).

They say that you can use stats to determine who is clutch and who is not. By there definitions, Joe Carter, Kirk Gibson and Rick Monday cannot be considered clutch because of one moment. Also that Buckner and A. Gonzalez are not chokers because of one moment.

I think that there are only a few clutch moments in history. These are the only ones that matter. Trying to come up with a clutch stat is silly.

I think that it is different for everybody and everybody has their own idea of what is clutch.

Give me your ideas of what clutch is by using examples.

Eg.

The original Clutch - David (of David and Goliath - Bible David, not the kid's show)

The little Jewish brother came through when it mattered - Old Testament Clutch.

up to modern times

My man Justin Timberlake - also came through under pressure when the world was watching - Nipple Clutch

Who is clutch for you?



(Please Trans and others on the Mod Squad - don't banish this to some backwater like the Reds Forum - if the Peeps thread can last here, so can this one)
Last edited by Mookie4ever on Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dude86 » Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:32 pm

Well first of all anyone who had a moment like Carter or Gibson is in Clutch Hall of Fame and no one can question their clutchness. However Bill Buckner did have a good career and did not choke, his knees were just so bad at the point that he couldn't get down fast enough.
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Postby Dude86 » Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:34 pm

Also I forgot to mention that stats can be used to determine a clutch ballplayer however you can also be a clutch player even if the stats don't agree.
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Postby JRRNeiklot » Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:45 pm

Take a look at George Brett. They should put his picture in the dictionary under the word "clutch."
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:51 pm

From Bartleby.com:
PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: klch KEY
NOUN: 1. The complete set of eggs produced or incubated at one time.
2. A brood of chickens.
3. A group; a bunch.
TRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: clutched, clutch·ing, clutch·es
To hatch (chicks).
ETYMOLOGY: Variant of dialectal cletch; akin to Middle English clekken, to hatch, from Old Norse klekja.

Or

NOUN: 1. A hand, claw, talon, or paw in the act of grasping.
2. A tight grasp.
3. Control or power. Often used in the plural: caught in the clutches of sin.
4. A device for gripping and holding.
5a. Any of various devices for engaging and disengaging two working parts of a shaft or of a shaft and a driving mechanism. b. The apparatus, such as a lever or pedal, that activates one of these devices


Hope this helps :-D
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Postby Madison » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:06 pm

This has come up quite a few times this offseason. Here's my take on the subject and it's from another thread, but I couldn't have written it any better:

Madison from another thread wrote:Well I guess I should chime in on this........

As a person who earns a living as an athlete (yes, bowlers are athletes), I'll say a few things about chokers/clutch.

First of all, why is someone who can perform at their best level in any situation considered "clutch"?

For those who don't know, I earn a living bowling tournaments. Now if I step up in the 10th frame and I need 3 strikes to win first and $5000, and I do it, I'm considered "clutch". Why? Isn't that what I'm supposed to do? Isn't that how I earn a living?

No different for ballplayers. They are paid to perform at the highest levels, no matter what the situation. I don't believe they should be considered "clutch" for doing what they are paid to do. I also don't classify a hitter as "clutch" in the playoffs or World Series. There are professional hitters, and people who can't handle the pressure.

Now I'll be the first to admit that there are a lot of "chokers" out there. I don't particularly like the term, but there are a lot of people who just can't handle the pressure situations. The first time I ever won a $5000 tournament, the other guy "choked". He shot around 140. He's a much better bowler than that, just with the money on the line, he couldn't perform. I've seen it many, many times in my life.

So I have to admit that there is such a thing as "choke". As to "clutch", I must admit that I really don't think it's that big of a deal to be able to perform the way you are paid to perform regardless of the circumstances. I also don't understand why there is such a big deal made out of "clutch". That's what the professional ballplayers are paid to do.

Just my opinion. ;-)
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Postby Absolutely Adequate » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:33 pm

I'm not going to get into the clutch argument. I've been there, done that.

But saying that bowlers are athletes is like saying that hallmark cards are poetry. It's not the same thing.

Maybe there should be a category between sports and games for NASCAR and bowling and etc. Sort of like a spork is a mixture between the spoon and the fork.. We can call them "gorts."
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:39 pm

Madison wrote:This has come up quite a few times this offseason. Here's my take on the subject and it's from another thread, but I couldn't have written it any better:

Madison from another thread wrote:Well I guess I should chime in on this........

As a person who earns a living as an athlete (yes, bowlers are athletes), I'll say a few things about chokers/clutch.

First of all, why is someone who can perform at their best level in any situation considered "clutch"?

For those who don't know, I earn a living bowling tournaments. Now if I step up in the 10th frame and I need 3 strikes to win first and $5000, and I do it, I'm considered "clutch". Why? Isn't that what I'm supposed to do? Isn't that how I earn a living?

No different for ballplayers. They are paid to perform at the highest levels, no matter what the situation. I don't believe they should be considered "clutch" for doing what they are paid to do. I also don't classify a hitter as "clutch" in the playoffs or World Series. There are professional hitters, and people who can't handle the pressure.

Now I'll be the first to admit that there are a lot of "chokers" out there. I don't particularly like the term, but there are a lot of people who just can't handle the pressure situations. The first time I ever won a $5000 tournament, the other guy "choked". He shot around 140. He's a much better bowler than that, just with the money on the line, he couldn't perform. I've seen it many, many times in my life.

So I have to admit that there is such a thing as "choke". As to "clutch", I must admit that I really don't think it's that big of a deal to be able to perform the way you are paid to perform regardless of the circumstances. I also don't understand why there is such a big deal made out of "clutch". That's what the professional ballplayers are paid to do.

Just my opinion. ;-)


Point taken Madison....however take the 2001 World Series games 4 and 5 as examples.

Bottom of the 9th, two outs and down. 99% of the time the team fails or "doesn't do their job" in this situation. The game is basically over and nobody gives it a second thought. However when you least expect it...bang....homerun and the game is tied. Granted this would be a clutch hit in any game but IMO it is elevated to an even higher level on a big stage such as the World Series. In my opinion that is clutch.

The "doing your job" argument is fair however in baseball hitters are only expected to do their job 30% of the time and people are happy with it. That is why I do believe in clutch. Not every needed hit is clutch...hits that are on big stages and when your back is against the wall are clutch. Big plays that happen when you least expect them to or when your team is in dyer need of one.....that is what clutch is IMO. It doesn't matter who you are...whether you have a .350 batting average or a .140 average. At that moment you came through in the clutch for your team.
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Postby NZF » Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:56 pm

This is my take on clutch and choke professional athletes.

When I say professional athletes I'm not talking two guys bowling for $ 5k, I'm talking an athlete that has risen to the very top in their chosen sport ie. MLB baseball players.

Many MLB baseball players are considered "clutch" others may be termed "chokers". In fact if you dig deeply into their stats over a significant period you will find that their so called "clutch" or "choke" performances are no more or less what they will produce over their entire careers.

To suggest a player is "clutch" is suggesting that at other times this same player performs at a standard below what he is capable of.

Any athlete that has climbed to the very pinnacle of their chosen sport has to have already shown the qualities and mental toughness required to have got to that level in the first place.

To suggest Phil Mickelson or Greg Norman may be "chokers" because they haven't had a great deal of Major success is rubbish.


Look at the stats (I have many times) guys like Brett perform overall no better in post season than they do in regular season games. To suggest they did is a gross slight on their performances pre- October.

I think this obsession sports fans have with “choke and “clutch” athletes is no more than the need for us to have an explanation. We aren’t content to think that these events happen randomly. People perform under pressure in all walks of life. If you perform well under pressure in your job you get promoted, if an athlete performs well under pressure regularly they may to the very top of their chosen sport and on to the world stage.

Sure choking happens but that same athlete rarely gets a chance of a repeat performance.
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Postby KULCAT » Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:22 pm

Id take bowling over golf as a sport
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