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Um....Somebody get Braun out of the OF...

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Re: Um....Somebody get Braun out of the OF...

Postby colemwi » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:34 pm

Snakes Gould wrote:
chipper wrote:Well anyone who says he's not at least more at risk of injury in the outfield (where he's never played before) isn't being honest with themselves.

No doubt Braun moved to the OF helps their defense, I'd just rather make sure I have my star hitter 100%.
Cameron in CF already makes the defense better, and the benefit you get by having Hall at 3B is slightly offset by the downgrade you get by having Braun in LF. So all in all, and in my opinion, it ain't worth it.

Hall to 3B, defensive upgrade at 3B.
Braun to LF, defensive downgrade at LF (and higher risk of injury to your stud hitter who's never played out there before). An upgrade at 3B with a downgrade at LF doesn't make things that much better.
Yes I know more balls will go to 3B than LF, I just don't see the risk of this as worth it, and I guess we'll see what happens. They lose Braun though, and they truly will be pretenders.


By the way, Bill Hall made 19 errors in 2006.........

2 of them at came at 3B in only 10 games 8-o ;-D
You sure you're getting your money's worth of a defensive upgrade vs the risk of injury?

Let's go a bit deeper:
Bill Hall 2003: 1 game at 3B......1 error (1 every 1 game)
Bill Hall 2004: 7 games started at 3B.......2 errors (1 every 3.5 games)
Bill Hall 2005: 49 games started at 3B.......6 errors (1 every 8 games)
Bill Hall 2006: 10 games started at 3B.......2 errors (1 every 5 games)

Looks like Bill Hall was worse at 3B in his first couple years than Braun was in his first year.
Take out 2005, and Hall made errors at 3B at a clip of 1 per every 3.6 games.....worse than what Braun showed last year. In my opinion he's not THAT much better at 3B than Braun (considering he only had 1 year out of 4 where he actually WAS better at 3B than Braun). Combine that with the fact that Braun is also worse than Hall in LF, and you don't get that much of an overall improvement for what you're doing.


if you're using errors to gauge defensive prowess, you're already losing the battle.



exactly
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Re: Um....Somebody get Braun out of the OF...

Postby RAmst23 » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:01 pm

Chipper do you really think playing defense in LF is completely different than 3B? It's the same sport, it's not like they're asking Braun to start playing offensive tackle for the Packers. If you think LF is simply more physically demanding than 3B that's one thing, but I am certainly not buying the argument that putting Braun in the Outfield is this huge traumatic move for the guy. Where exactly do you see the increased injury concern coming from? It seems to me all of your evidence comes from the fact his feet hurt him now, which he attributes to funky shoes (And it's what, a day to day injury at best?)

I don't care if Braun is the 2nd coming of Babe Ruth, you move him from 3B, an important defensive position, to LF, less important. Your "math" backing up your reasoning as have others have stated, extremely suspect. Regardless, none of this matters. Ryan Braun is the leftfielder for the Brewers and that's not changing.
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Re: Um....Somebody get Braun out of the OF...

Postby Scooter1027 » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:11 pm

Snakes Gould wrote:if you're using errors to gauge defensive prowess, you're already losing the battle.


Bingo. Most third basemen make a number of errors, it's the nature of the "hot corner". Errors are an overrated stat based on subjective calls by official scorers. Braun's errors were undoubtedly frustrating, but the real difference between him and Hall is the instincts and range. Hall flat gets to more balls and can make more plays than Braun (which of course can lead to more errors because he's actually getting a glove on balls). It's why Hall had a higher error rate at SS than JJ Hardy too -- he can get to many more balls over there than JJ. To me this is a no-brainer move. If defensive hacks like Adam Dunn, Manny Ramirez, and Carlos Lee can survive LF without hurting themselves, I think a tremendous young athlete like Braun can do it too. There will just be a bit of a learning curve.
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Re: Um....Somebody get Braun out of the OF...

Postby chipper » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:31 pm

My point with the Bill Hall numbers is that he's not stellar defensively. Also, maybe it took him a year or two to get good, something nobody seems willing to give Braun a chance at.

Either way, yeah he's starting out there.....and if it looks like it doesn't agree with his body, he should and will be removed.
All I been saying is that if it came down to possibly losing his bat, get him the F out of there.
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Re: Um....Somebody get Braun out of the OF...

Postby BitterDodgerFan » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:37 pm

Snakes Gould wrote:if you're using errors to gauge defensive prowess, you're already losing the battle.

yeah, i only gauge defensive prowess with the number of web gems a player has. :-)
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Re: Um....Somebody get Braun out of the OF...

Postby chipper » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:41 pm

BitterDodgerFan wrote:
Snakes Gould wrote:if you're using errors to gauge defensive prowess, you're already losing the battle.

yeah, i only gauge defensive prowess with the number of web gems a player has. :-)

Ha.

Yeah I fully understand the concept of better fielders getting to more balls and therefore having more chances at errors. Though a lot of the time if a guy makes a great play to even get to a ball, the scorer will not give him an error anyway.

I'm thrilled to have Braun with the dual elig (3B/OF), I just question if it will hurt him at all. I guess we all just have to see, and that's all that can be said at this time.
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Re: Um....Somebody get Braun out of the OF...

Postby seniorpaul » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:19 pm

I'm surprised that noone else has brought this up, but Braun was never really comfortable as a 3B. He played SS in high school and for most of his college career. He had never played the position full time till 2006, and in recent interviews he's stated that he feels more comfortable in the outfeild.

The Brewers, being a small market team, have a small window to keep their core players together (Sheets, Feilder, Weeks, Hart, Bruan, Hardy, etc...) and they need to give themselves the best opportunity to win now. They really don't have the time to wait for Bruan to "get comfortable" playing 3B, so the best option for the team in to move him to the outfeild.
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Re: Um....Somebody get Braun out of the OF...

Postby RedSoxNation04 » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:37 pm

sandman042 wrote:agree w/ acid rock 100%. also what wins championships. PITCHING AND DEFENSE. W/ braun at third obviously the defense part of it cannot be there.

You know what else wins championships?

Putting on a Red Sox uniform!

Seriously though, he'll be fine in LF...and he has a gold glove CF to help him out ( as soon as he sits out 25 games, that is...)
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Re: Um....Somebody get Braun out of the OF...

Postby Scooter1027 » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:56 pm

seniorpaul wrote:I'm surprised that noone else has brought this up, but Braun was never really comfortable as a 3B. He played SS in high school and for most of his college career. He had never played the position full time till 2006, and in recent interviews he's stated that he feels more comfortable in the outfeild.

The Brewers, being a small market team, have a small window to keep their core players together (Sheets, Feilder, Weeks, Hart, Bruan, Hardy, etc...) and they need to give themselves the best opportunity to win now. They really don't have the time to wait for Bruan to "get comfortable" playing 3B, so the best option for the team in to move him to the outfeild.


Two very good points. Braun said in an interview that he really didn't like 3B, whatever that's worth. And your second point is spot on. When Weeks broke in, we had a couple years to let him cut his teeth defensively, and he's still not that much better. Improved, but still amongst the bottom of the league. This is a team poised to make a division championship run this year. This was a move that had to be made.

For what it's worth, I spent a week in AZ watching 5 Brewer spring training games, and Hall looked good at third from what I saw. Braun had one bad day in left, the other days he was fine, nothing spectacular, but fine. I think having Cameron in center should help him out quite a bit. Even Gwynn should help during those first 25 games.
Last edited by Scooter1027 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Um....Somebody get Braun out of the OF...

Postby tribefan08 » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:22 pm

so how many of your guy's leagues count errors as a CATEGORY?

Mine doesn't so who cares. I highly doubt it messes with his offensive stats. Like I stated previously if anything he'll make less errors which should carry over to better AB's.

BRAUN for MVP
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