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Drafting players on the same team

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Re: Drafting players on the same team

Postby Ender » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:45 am

Ernie Whitt wrote:
Ender wrote:This is the goofiest thing I've read in a while. one player getting R/RBI doesn't make another player from the same team worth more to your team. If guys bat in a favorable lineup they get better stats period, makes no difference if one is already on your team and you shouldn't target two guys on the same team just because of it.


While it seems a little unorthodox, it make statistical sense, to me at least.

While everyone else in your league is gaining ground in RBIs while losing ground in Runs (ie you get an RBI when your player drives in a player on your opponent's team) or gaining ground in Runs while losing ground in RBIs (ie your player scored when he is driven in by player on your opponent's team) you're gaining ground in both Runs and RBIs by having both players that scored the run and the RBI.

Come on people, there's tons of fantasy baseball veterans in here, I can't be the only one who sees the possible value here.


I still think it doesn't make sense. Every day there is a number of stats that get added to your league and it is independent of individual players. You aren't somehow gaining value by keeping one lineups stats going to just your team because the other players stats are still being generated regardless. A R isn't more valuable because someone on your team got an RBI, that just makes no mathematical sense.
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Re: Drafting players on the same team

Postby Fade2White12 » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:24 am

I agree. I really do not see any statistical significance in doing this. Say you get Derrek Lee and Aramis Ramirez on your team, as opposed to Derrek Lee and Garrett Atkins. Assuming that both Ramirez and Atkins end the season with the exact same statistics, you have not accumulated more Runs or more RBIs. At the end of the year, your totals will be exactly the same.

The only reason for there to be what *seems* like success are the caliber of the players. Obviously a player who hits directly in front of Alex Rodriguez will see an increase in statistics, but that's simply because that player is hitting in front of Alex Rodriguez! - and because of this, ARod's increased statistics directly effect that other player. However this likely will be already accounted for through projections and be reflected in rankings and draft position.
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Re: Drafting players on the same team

Postby Ernie Whitt » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:21 pm

Fade2White12 wrote:I agree. I really do not see any statistical significance in doing this. Say you get Derrek Lee and Aramis Ramirez on your team, as opposed to Derrek Lee and Garrett Atkins. Assuming that both Ramirez and Atkins end the season with the exact same statistics, you have not accumulated more Runs or more RBIs. At the end of the year, your totals will be exactly the same.

The only reason for there to be what *seems* like success are the caliber of the players. Obviously a player who hits directly in front of Alex Rodriguez will see an increase in statistics, but that's simply because that player is hitting in front of Alex Rodriguez! - and because of this, ARod's increased statistics directly effect that other player. However this likely will be already accounted for through projections and be reflected in rankings and draft position.


You're right, you're not accumulating more runs or RBIs by having Ramirez over Atkins, assuming they end up with the same totals.

The benefit comes from preventing your opponents from accumulating the runs or RBIs that are a direct result of your players scoring runs and RBIs. Instead of them accumulating them, you do.

I guess the best way to think of it is as a "defensive" strategy rather than an "offensive" one.
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Re: Drafting players on the same team

Postby Ernie Whitt » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:34 pm

Ender wrote:
Ernie Whitt wrote:
Ender wrote:This is the goofiest thing I've read in a while. one player getting R/RBI doesn't make another player from the same team worth more to your team. If guys bat in a favorable lineup they get better stats period, makes no difference if one is already on your team and you shouldn't target two guys on the same team just because of it.


While it seems a little unorthodox, it make statistical sense, to me at least.

While everyone else in your league is gaining ground in RBIs while losing ground in Runs (ie you get an RBI when your player drives in a player on your opponent's team) or gaining ground in Runs while losing ground in RBIs (ie your player scored when he is driven in by player on your opponent's team) you're gaining ground in both Runs and RBIs by having both players that scored the run and the RBI.

Come on people, there's tons of fantasy baseball veterans in here, I can't be the only one who sees the possible value here.


I still think it doesn't make sense. Every day there is a number of stats that get added to your league and it is independent of individual players. You aren't somehow gaining value by keeping one lineups stats going to just your team because the other players stats are still being generated regardless. A R isn't more valuable because someone on your team got an RBI, that just makes no mathematical sense.


I think the value comes from the fact that you're doing the exact opposite of what the rest of your league is doing. While everyone else is content to lose a little in the runs column when they get an RBI and vice versa, you're gaining in both runs and RBI when either one happens for your team.

Like I said, I'm not totally sold on this idea myself, but I'm not seeing how this DOESN'T give you an advantage.
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Re: Drafting players on the same team

Postby Matthias » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:12 pm

Ernie Whitt wrote:I think the value comes from the fact that you're doing the exact opposite of what the rest of your league is doing. While everyone else is content to lose a little in the runs column when they get an RBI and vice versa, you're gaining in both runs and RBI when either one happens for your team.

Like I said, I'm not totally sold on this idea myself, but I'm not seeing how this DOESN'T give you an advantage.

You do realize that if every time Atkins gets an RBI on the other team, you're also giving that away?

Let's put it this way. You already have Ortiz. You have the option to take Lowell or A-Rod.

On April 1st, A-Rod goes 4-4 with 2HRs, 5RBIS, and 3 Runs.
On April 1st, Lowell goes 2-4 with 0HRs, 3RBIs, and 1 Run.

If you take Lowell, you aren't, "giving away" any RBIs on the 2 times that Lowell hits him in.
But you are really, "giving away" 2 hits, 2 HRs, 2 RBIs, and 2 Runs that you could have had if you had drafted A-Rod.

I know your next thought is, "but I'm not talking about A-Rod vs. Lowell... I'm talking about Blalock vs. Lowell". Ok, fine. Replace the name A-Rod with Blalock, change the production to Lowell's if you like, and tell me what difference it made.
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Re: Drafting players on the same team

Postby DbacksRback » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:21 pm

I have Holliday, Atkins and Tulo on my $ team i wasnt planning on it but its just the way it worked out baseed on the value i was getting them at
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Re: Drafting players on the same team

Postby WyldStallyn » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:54 pm

an interesting idea. let me explain how i see it not helping at all (in roto at least). by having players on the same team, you will be getting whatever stats they do, but you wont get stats from other teams players. say that by taking manny over abreu while owning ortiz, you are keeping the runs that are directly created by the combo away from another manager, but they are still getting runs elsewhere. if both players have a good game, you gain ground in both fields. but if both have a bad day, you lose it. scoring in roto is a pure ranking system, all that matters are the numbers compared to everyone elses at the end of the season. say you have ortiz/manny, and end up with combined runs of 220 and rbis of 230. you couldve had howard/abreu and ended up with the exact same totals. would it matter that mannys rbi's came with ortiz's runs? not at all. the abreu owner still gets the rbi's when he drives in jeter or damon. it doesnt matter where the numbers come from, just that theyre there. it was a nice idea, but unfortunately makes no difference
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Re: Drafting players on the same team

Postby markj11 » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:10 pm

It was awsome having Tom Brady and Randy Moss.
I ain't askin' nobody for nothin, If I can't get it on my own. - Charlie Daniels
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Re: Drafting players on the same team

Postby Matthias » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:15 pm

markj11 wrote:It was awsome having Tom Brady and Randy Moss.

Different sport; different situation; and it was awesome because they both set NFL records. That would've been awesome if they had played on different conferences. Really, this all should drop... everyone's made their point. Nobody's mind is going to be changed any more.
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Re: Drafting players on the same team

Postby Ernie Whitt » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:22 pm

Matthias wrote:
Ernie Whitt wrote:I think the value comes from the fact that you're doing the exact opposite of what the rest of your league is doing. While everyone else is content to lose a little in the runs column when they get an RBI and vice versa, you're gaining in both runs and RBI when either one happens for your team.

Like I said, I'm not totally sold on this idea myself, but I'm not seeing how this DOESN'T give you an advantage.

You do realize that if every time Atkins gets an RBI on the other team, you're also giving that away?

Let's put it this way. You already have Ortiz. You have the option to take Lowell or A-Rod.

On April 1st, A-Rod goes 4-4 with 2HRs, 5RBIS, and 3 Runs.
On April 1st, Lowell goes 2-4 with 0HRs, 3RBIs, and 1 Run.

If you take Lowell, you aren't, "giving away" any RBIs on the 2 times that Lowell hits him in.
But you are really, "giving away" 2 hits, 2 HRs, 2 RBIs, and 2 Runs that you could have had if you had drafted A-Rod.

I know your next thought is, "but I'm not talking about A-Rod vs. Lowell... I'm talking about Blalock vs. Lowell". Ok, fine. Replace the name A-Rod with Blalock, change the production to Lowell's if you like, and tell me what difference it made.


Here is the difference:

On April 1st, A-Rod goes 2-4 with 0HRs, 3RBIs, and 1 Run.
On April 1st, Lowell goes 2-4 with 0HRs, 3RBIs, and 1 Run.
On April 1st, Ortiz goes 2-4 with 0HRS, 1RBI and 3 runs.
And, for the sake of argument, assume Ortiz and Lowell knocked each other in for their respective runs and RBIS.

If you own Lowell and Ortiz your total for the day is:
4-8, 0HR, 4 RBI, 4 Runs

If you own A-Rod and Ortiz your total for the day is:
4-8, 0HR, 4 RBI, 4 Runs - exactly the same.

But we're not talking so much as your bottom line as limiting your opponents' bottom lines.

If you own A-Rod and Ortiz (and one of your opponents own Lowell), they're getting the benefit of Lowell's stats which were a direct by-product of Ortiz's stats. Same thing with the players who got the benefit of A-Rod's stats. It's a domino effect.

By owning A-Rod and Ortiz, in addition to your 4 runs and RBIs, you created 4 runs and RBIs for other players in your league - the people who own Lowell and whoever A-Rod knocked in.

But by owning Lowell and Ortiz, you still get your 4 runs and 4 rbis, but have created nothing for anyone else in the rest of the league.
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