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trade Vetoable or is my league Veto happy?

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Re: trade Vetoable or is my league Veto happy?

Postby Matthias » Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:23 pm

Russell James wrote:
If you in the pre season trade away say David Wright for Pedro Feliz and Livan Hernandez, even if there is no collusion I would still think that is a vetoable trade.

Thought I would chime in again.

It sounds like you play with a bunch of idiots to be quite honest. Find yourself a better league.

Not true. It's very competitive, very knowledgeable, and very active. But as I said above, you sometimes get roped into playing in some leagues on the side for other reasons (coworkers, former classmates, friends, etc.) where you do get some crazies.

Besides, I wasn't using that example as something that happened, but rather as an example that, "No veto except for collusion" is a qualified mantra. There are cases where you should veto trades just on the gross disparity of it.
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Re: trade Vetoable or is my league Veto happy?

Postby Russell James » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:28 pm

Your hypothetical situation was if I get roped into a friends league. Honestly, I wouldn't care as long as its not a money league. If it's a money league I would probably piss and moan and then bang my head against a wall for ever getting involved with a retarded league full of retarded players. If it's not a money league then I will let it go, but I will probably abandon my team for the rest of the season and never play with those idiots again. I really can't see that trade every happening without it being collusion though.

But this doesn't really prove your point because these trades are so rare. You realize how what would have to happen before that trade could even be offered? Pedro Feliz and Livan Hernandez would have to be picked up off of waivers first and then traded. If that were to happen it would be considered collusion, even if the David Wright owner swore with his hand on the Bible before Congress that it wasn't the case.

Would I care if a veto was used in a situation like that? No, but how we justify the veto would be different. I would veto based on collusion and it sounds like others would veto based on "It will hurt my team!" Vetoing based on that reason is dangerous because it can lead you down a road that our friend, cwrtlm is experiencing right now. Every one of his trades are being knocked down. Was the first one debatable? sure, the rest were not.

As crazy as it sounds, I would much rather run the risk of trades like Feliz and Livan for Wright going through (because it is highly unlikely and rare that they ever will) then to switch off to league votes again. You will never escape problems with any system, but having a good commissioner who is fair and not intrusive is much better then having a league full of people applying their values to other players or vetoing due to a bias.
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Re: trade Vetoable or is my league Veto happy?

Postby Matthias » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:47 pm

Russell James wrote:But this doesn't really prove your point because these trades are so rare. You realize how what would have to happen before that trade could even be offered? Pedro Feliz and Livan Hernandez would have to be picked up off of waivers first and then traded. If that were to happen it would be considered collusion, even if the David Wright owner swore with his hand on the Bible before Congress that it wasn't the case.

Really, we're just talking about definition of terms then. Strictly defined, collusion requires coordinated action between two parties. If there was no coordinated action, it's not collusion... it's just a really, really, really bad trade. But we're both getting to the same end result.

Russell James wrote:Would I care if a veto was used in a situation like that? No, but how we justify the veto would be different. I would veto based on collusion and it sounds like others would veto based on "It will hurt my team!" Vetoing based on that reason is dangerous because it can lead you down a road that our friend, cwrtlm is experiencing right now.

I never veto based upon, "It will hurt my team!" I only veto if a trade is so bad that it poisons the league, making the idea of fair competition ridiculous. Can you win a game of basketball spotting another team 45 points? Sure, it's possible, but it's not what competition is really about. Also, as I said earlier, someone's right to run their team how they want does not trump everyone else's right to have a meaning to playing their team. So if someone, because they were bored or because they liked the letter M, or because they thought they had some super-secret-fantastic insight did a truly horrendous trade in my league, I'll veto it. Not because it ruins it for me, but because it ruins it for everybody. Fortunately, when you get to vett the guys who you let into your league, this never happens.

Russell James wrote:As crazy as it sounds, I would much rather run the risk of trades like Feliz and Livan for Wright going through (because it is highly unlikely and rare that they ever will) then to switch off to league votes again. You will never escape problems with any system, but having a good commissioner who is fair and not intrusive is much better then having a league full of people applying their values to other players or vetoing due to a bias.

Hey, I agree. I'm a commish-veto guy and have said that consistently throughout. Our only real point of disagreement it seems is how we characterize truly awful trades: you would veto them under the belief that there must be collusion. I would veto them even absent any hint of collusion just because they're truly awful. But you are right that they're extraordinarily rare; I've commished 3 or 4 baseball leagues over the past few years and never vetoed a single trade. I just reserve the right to do so.
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Re: trade Vetoable or is my league Veto happy?

Postby Matthias » Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:04 pm

Russell James wrote:Your hypothetical situation was if I get roped into a friends league. Honestly, I wouldn't care as long as its not a money league. If it's a money league I would probably piss and moan and then bang my head against a wall for ever getting involved with a retarded league full of retarded players. If it's not a money league then I will let it go, but I will probably abandon my team for the rest of the season and never play with those idiots again. I really can't see that trade every happening without it being collusion though.

This is basically my point about a trade ruining a league. If you have something that really is god-awful, you've done more than control the direction of your own team. You've bombed the league, making it pointless.

Pulling the escape hatch is one option; you could also try to maintain some league integrity and work within it because you want to stay in the league to be able to trash-talk friends who live elsewhere and you don't see any more, which is sometimes the case when I do fantasy leagues.
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Re: trade Vetoable or is my league Veto happy?

Postby Matthias » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:06 am

This isn't my league, but this thread is an example of a really, really bad trade that take place... bad enough that I don't care if they two owners are twin brothers working together or two guys who had never met... I would put the kobosh.
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