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Francoeur is "country strong"

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Re: Francoeur is "country strong"

Postby chipper » Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:01 pm

AussieDodger wrote:His .330 minor league OBP says it is unlikely to improve.
In a non-fantasy sense he is only half a player in my eyes. ;-D

Gee, that wouldn't have anything to do with the fact you like the A's, would it?
While I am an A's fan, just because it's their way, doesn't mean it's the right way.

Whatever his minor league numbers say, he's only 24 (younger than many rookies), and has shown improvement in his ability to take a walk from his first full season to his second full season (nearly 100% improvement in fact). So to think he can't continue to improve is a joke.
He's super young, super talented (in a fantasy sense and a non-fantasy sense).
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Re: Francoeur is "country strong"

Postby AussieDodger » Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:15 pm

chipper wrote:
AussieDodger wrote:His .330 minor league OBP says it is unlikely to improve.
In a non-fantasy sense he is only half a player in my eyes. ;-D

Gee, that wouldn't have anything to do with the fact you like the A's, would it?
While I am an A's fan, just because it's their way, doesn't mean it's the right way.

Whatever his minor league numbers say, he's only 24 (younger than many rookies), and has shown improvement in his ability to take a walk from his first full season to his second full season (nearly 100% improvement in fact). So to think he can't continue to improve is a joke.
He's super young, super talented (in a fantasy sense and a non-fantasy sense).


We have to agree to disagree.
In the minors from 1416 at-bats he walked 88 times which is not flash. The amount of walking he did in 2007 is pretty close to that ratio per at-bat.
I don't think he'll get much better at this, though I'd be impressed if he did.

chipper wrote:Whatever his minor league numbers say,

You know that minor league numbers are a decent map of what's most likely to happen in the majors?
If you're going to say he's going to walk more because he's super young, super talented etc you might as well say he's going to do it because he looks good in a uniform and helps old ladies cross the street. :-D
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Re: Francoeur is "country strong"

Postby wake » Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:24 pm

AussieDodger wrote:In a non-fantasy sense he is only half a player in my eyes. ;-D


I'd bump him up in a non-fantasy sense. Plate discipline affects fantasy numbers while fielding, throwing arm, and clubhouse presence don't.
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Re: Francoeur is "country strong"

Postby jlm53089 » Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:47 am

Lets hope he does not start his wild swing again.
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Re: Francoeur is "country strong"

Postby kemper5 » Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:06 am

It's great he's been reported to have some in with added muscle, alot of power sluggers if not most do this, I just think it's pre-mature to bump him up and go crazy on him. As was said, this is a guy who is really bad in drawing walks and that is a big part of a successful season, I mean walking 23 times in 651 AB's in o6' and then not doing much better in 07' is not going to cut it, he also KO's 130 times last year, there is a absolute ton to learn there. . It's great he has tree trunk legs, but he still has a ton to learn, a nice 20 HR/101 RBI/ .280 type hitter, but there are a fair amount of those also, just not going crazy on him here.
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Re: Francoeur is "country strong"

Postby chipper » Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:39 am

AussieDodger wrote:
chipper wrote:Whatever his minor league numbers say,

You know that minor league numbers are a decent map of what's most likely to happen in the majors?
If you're going to say he's going to walk more because he's super young, super talented etc you might as well say he's going to do it because he looks good in a uniform and helps old ladies cross the street. :-D

Of course I know that minor league numbers are a decent map. But young hitters (which he is) learn patience over time. It's a bit early at age 19-24 (his minor and major league career), to write him off as someone that cannot and will not learn patience and improve his batting eye.

And like I said, just because the Oakland A's happen to believe that working counts and drawing walks are the most important factor in a good hitter, doesn't make it so.
Part of their preference for hitters like that, is derived from their budget restrictions: a) they can't usually afford the high priced homerun guys; b) because they can't afford to sign bigtime bats, they look for guys who can get on base a lot to propel their offense.
I'm not saying it's not a good thing to be able to take a walk, of course it's great. But it's not the end all in determining a hitters value, fantasy or real life.


kemper5 wrote:I mean walking 23 times in 651 AB's in o6' and then not doing much better in 07' is not going to cut it

Not sure how nearly doubling a number is not doing much better?
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Re: Francoeur is "country strong"

Postby Tarquin » Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:53 am

We have to agree to disagree.
In the minors from 1416 at-bats he walked 88 times which is not flash. The amount of walking he did in 2007 is pretty close to that ratio per at-bat.
I don't think he'll get much better at this, though I'd be impressed if he did.


Jose Reyes walked 100 times in 1300 minor league AB's, walked like 27 times in 640 in 2005, then 53 in 2006 and 77 in 2007. I think frenchy will follow a similiar path. Anyone who can improve from one year to the next by the percent franceour improved by has more room for improvement IMO.
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Re: Francoeur is "country strong"

Postby Ender » Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:16 am

The majority of power hitters increase their BB's in the majors so I don't see why he cannot do it. As your power grows more and more pitches nibble on you and as long as you are commited to OBP that leads to more BB's.

If he is actively trying to improve his OBP I'm pretty sure he can still do it. It is guys who take the stance that 'swinging got me here' instead of trying to work for more OBP that don't show much growth, guys like Vlad and Soriano.
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Re: Francoeur is "country strong"

Postby Pirates4Life » Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:39 pm

I don't understand all the negative talk about Francouer

He burst onto the scene in 2005, but from year 2 to year 3,

he almost doubled his BB:K ratio (.17 to .33),
almost doubled his BB rate (3.4% to 6.1%),
raised his BA 33 points (.260 to .293),
raised his OBP 45 points (.293 to .338),
and at least managed to keep his K rate constant (20.3% to 20.1%)

He even had more success stealing bases - 1 for 7 in 2006, 5 for 7 in 2007. That could lead to more opportunities, because it's not like he can't run.
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Re: Francoeur is "country strong"

Postby KronJon » Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:42 pm

Francoeur has 2 full seasons under his belt with the following slugging percentages:

.449
.444

That right there gets a big "MEH" from me.
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