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cheaters since 2000

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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby mweir145 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:40 pm

Madison wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:Nobody is talking about federal law. We are talking about the laws of baseball.


It's the same old argument. The laws of baseball don't override federal law. If federal law says something is illegal, then it is illegal regardless of what MLB says or doesn't say.

Again...it still wouldn't be cheating in that specific sport, it would be breaking a federal law, leaving a person open for punishment by the government, but not the league.
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby JRM4833 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:00 pm

Yoda wrote:
bigken117 wrote:
Yoda wrote:Pats received a punishment because they were caught cheating and they admitted it. Not to mention illegal video taping is against the rules while HGH/steroids were not at the time those guys took them. But why let facts get in the way?


MLB rules bypass federal laws? Is that a fact?


Did I say that? What is the law against for using steroids? Is it a felony? Do you go to jail?

Tell me what is worse. Certain individuals cheating or an entire organization cheating?


I am shocked that you jumped in to accuse me of ignoring facts. The whole organization cheated? Is that a fact? Or was it just certain individuals?

Tell me what is worse. Individuals violating criminal laws or individuals breaking a rule in sports?
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby JRM4833 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:04 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:
bigken117 wrote:
Yoda wrote:Pats received a punishment because they were caught cheating and they admitted it. Not to mention illegal video taping is against the rules while HGH/steroids were not at the time those guys took them. But why let facts get in the way?


MLB rules bypass federal laws? Is that a fact?


Nobody is talking about federal law. We are talking about the laws of baseball. Steroids were not against baseball rules. So those players who took them were not cheating in baseball. Videotaping the opposition is against NFL rules, therefore the Pats did cheat.

It's not that difficult of a concept.


Do you seriously believe that? I'm sorry, but that is an absurd, head-stuck-in-the-sand argument.
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby JRM4833 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:26 pm

Yoda wrote:I am not saying the Pats would have been bad if not for cheating. They might have won all three Superbowls but how likely is that when they won each by 3 pts? Can you at least admit that cheating has aided their success?


How can you ask someone to admit a point when there has been no real evidence on the point. Goodell said himself the Patriots were not aided.

I'm also curious to hear people's interpretation of the fact that virtually all the former players and coaches who are interviewed on the subject feel that it's not a big deal. I mean, they all know that from the beginning of sports, teams have tried every trick in the book on the field to get an edge. Sports has become a chess match of trying to get around the rules on the field. The former players and coaches all understand that stealing signs is legal in the NFL. In pro sports, if you're not trying to steal signs, you're not trying hard enough. While I have no problem with the Patriots being punished harshly for violating the rule against using a camera to steal those signs, a little perspective is necessary.
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby tuckerman85 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:50 pm

I don't understand how anyone can believe that the Pats are the only team doing this... They are just targeted because historically people have liked bringing down those at the top. I'm not saying that what they did was right, but they certainly weren't the only ones to do it. Things just need to be policed better from here forward. The Pats paid the price for getting caught and everyone should begin to focus on preventing this in the future and then move on.
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby bigken117 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:58 pm

Yoda wrote:
bigken117 wrote:Um yeah you said steroids weren't illegal when those guys took them.


They weren't according to MLB rules. You are just trying to twist my words.


mweir145 wrote:
Madison wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:Nobody is talking about federal law. We are talking about the laws of baseball.


It's the same old argument. The laws of baseball don't override federal law. If federal law says something is illegal, then it is illegal regardless of what MLB says or doesn't say.

Again...it still wouldn't be cheating in that specific sport, it would be breaking a federal law, leaving a person open for punishment by the government, but not the league.



I would guess the MLB must have some sort of general conduct policy, the same as any organization from the massive Exxon to the little corner mart, that says something along the lines of employees must act in accordance with the law. Just because it's not specifically spelled out doesn't make it legal.

There's probably nothing in the MLB rules about murder...so it's OK for one ballplayer to murder another on the field? Maybe an extreme example, but if it's not in the rules then it must be OK?


And I do think that video taping did help the Pats, but only to prepare for the next time they faced. I don't believe that they were feeding the signals to Brady live and he was breaking down the defense based on the cordinaters hand signals on the fly. Also, they Pats are privy to all the tape they want from NFL Films to study an opponent. Based on the clip that was leaked, it was nothing more than matching hand signals with the formation at the time of game.

Yoda wrote:Not sure what point you are trying to make here but anyway. A player here and there cheating is not as bad as an entire organization cheating for 8 years. Think of it this way. A few students cheating on a few exams versus an entire school including the principal, teachers and students allowing cheating to go on for 8 years. What do you think is worse?


You make it sound like everyone from Bob Kraft down to the dude who sells beer for $8.50 was in on it. If it's such a bad thing, it was pretty clandestine throughout the organization. I doubt the punter or the backup long snapper or the dime back were in on it. And if it's so bad, why have ex-opponents like Dan Rooney and Dick Vermeil said it's not that big of a deal?
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby mweir145 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:40 pm

bigken117 wrote:I would guess the MLB must have some sort of general conduct policy, the same as any organization from the massive Exxon to the little corner mart, that says something along the lines of employees must act in accordance with the law. Just because it's not specifically spelled out doesn't make it legal.

As far as I know, there was no general conduct policy in MLB at the time, thereby making my point a valid one.
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby Yoda » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:45 pm

bigken117 wrote:I would guess the MLB must have some sort of general conduct policy, the same as any organization from the massive Exxon to the little corner mart, that says something along the lines of employees must act in accordance with the law. Just because it's not specifically spelled out doesn't make it legal.

There's probably nothing in the MLB rules about murder...so it's OK for one ballplayer to murder another on the field? Maybe an extreme example, but if it's not in the rules then it must be OK


Taking steroids is a bit different from capital crimes like murder. And please let's not get into this "Oh but what about the children? They look up to these people" argument. Nothing makes me more sick than bad parents who refuse to take responsibility for their own children or children not making responsible decisions. Using myself as an example, Schwartznegger was my idol growing up and I worked my ass off in body building, despite all the opportunities I had to take steroids, I never did them.

bigken117 wrote:And I do think that video taping did help the Pats, but only to prepare for the next time they faced. I don't believe that they were feeding the signals to Brady live and he was breaking down the defense based on the cordinaters hand signals on the fly. Also, they Pats are privy to all the tape they want from NFL Films to study an opponent. Based on the clip that was leaked, it was nothing more than matching hand signals with the formation at the time of game.


Game plans and play calling along with execution is the entire game of football. They certainly had the execution part down regardless of whether they cheated or not. However, if they knew specifically what plays the opponent was calling, that could change the entire outcome of the game and you only need one big play.

bigken117 wrote: And if it's so bad, why have ex-opponents like Dan Rooney and Dick Vermeil said it's not that big of a deal?


If it wasn't so bad then how come they were fined and penalized with draft picks? Goodell and the NFL were very quick to destroy all the evidence and tried bury this thing under the carpet. Now new stories being uncovered go far beyond stealing signals.
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby JRM4833 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:29 pm

bigken117 wrote:I would guess the MLB must have some sort of general conduct policy, the same as any organization from the massive Exxon to the little corner mart, that says something along the lines of employees must act in accordance with the law. Just because it's not specifically spelled out doesn't make it legal.

There's probably nothing in the MLB rules about murder...so it's OK for one ballplayer to murder another on the field? Maybe an extreme example, but if it's not in the rules then it must be OK?


Daryl Strawberry was suspended for 140 games for being caught with a prostitute and a small amount of cocaine (not testing positive for the drug). I think similar suspensions have been handed down over the years for offenses not explicitly outlined in the rules.
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby bigken117 » Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:18 am

mweir145 wrote:
bigken117 wrote:I would guess the MLB must have some sort of general conduct policy, the same as any organization from the massive Exxon to the little corner mart, that says something along the lines of employees must act in accordance with the law. Just because it's not specifically spelled out doesn't make it legal.

As far as I know, there was no general conduct policy in MLB at the time, thereby making my point a valid one.



So....if your employer doesn't explicitly say that doing cocaine is against policy, they have no grounds to suspend you for doing it? Your defense is "there's no policy against it".
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