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cheaters since 2000

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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby knapplc » Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:14 pm

Yoda wrote:...if the use of video cameras was so wide spread then how come there are no other teams being brought down like the Pats?

There's always that first person (or team) nabbed. Don't be surprised if some other team doesn't come forward, or isn't caught in the future. This isn't the last we've heard of this.
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby Field » Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:26 pm

Yoda wrote:
Field wrote:Doesn't ever team know that the other team is trying to steal signals? Whether it's buy the human eye or a camera it still attempting to get to the same end. Stealing signals by video camera is probably the more efficient way of doing it, but it's not any real great advantage in-game. It's like writing a paper on a type writer or on a laptop. And, it shouldn't translate game to game since every team changes their signals.

If the taping of the Ram walk-thru is true, that's completely different than in-game taping. That's definitely crossing a line, but nothing new in the game of football. I've heard many comments from those close to the game of football that teams actually ran "fake plays" to throw off the other team in case they were watching. Everyone in media land acts like this is such a novel crime, when in fact it's completely the opposite.

Specter is a clown, but I have no problem with them looking into this as long as long as the investigation thorough and wide-ranging.


Good points.

However, if the use of video cameras was so wide spread then how come there are no other teams being brought down like the Pats? I think what the Pats did goes way beyond what is acceptable as stealing signs and spying their opponents. Reason why no other team is being accused of the same and why the Pats were penalized and continue to be investigated.


Well I think part of it is their success and a general dislike to BB. Who cares about teams that finished below .500? I don't think video taping in-game is very wide-spread, but I'd like to find out either way. The NFL is a very tight knit community, coaches don't usualy break ranks like Mangini did. If they are going to investigate this they should certainly look into the Patriots but also the rest of the league. Specter is coming off like an upset fan rather than generally interested in the integrity of the game.

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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby JRM4833 » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:37 pm

Field wrote:
Yoda wrote:
Field wrote:Doesn't ever team know that the other team is trying to steal signals? Whether it's buy the human eye or a camera it still attempting to get to the same end. Stealing signals by video camera is probably the more efficient way of doing it, but it's not any real great advantage in-game. It's like writing a paper on a type writer or on a laptop. And, it shouldn't translate game to game since every team changes their signals.

If the taping of the Ram walk-thru is true, that's completely different than in-game taping. That's definitely crossing a line, but nothing new in the game of football. I've heard many comments from those close to the game of football that teams actually ran "fake plays" to throw off the other team in case they were watching. Everyone in media land acts like this is such a novel crime, when in fact it's completely the opposite.

Specter is a clown, but I have no problem with them looking into this as long as long as the investigation thorough and wide-ranging.


Good points.
However, if the use of video cameras was so wide spread then how come there are no other teams being brought down like the Pats? I think what the Pats did goes way beyond what is acceptable as stealing signs and spying their opponents. Reason why no other team is being accused of the same and why the Pats were penalized and continue to be investigated.


Well I think part of it is their success and a general dislike to BB. Who cares about teams that finished below .500? I don't think video taping in-game is very wide-spread, but I'd like to find out either way. The NFL is a very tight knit community, coaches don't usualy break ranks like Mangini did. If they are going to investigate this they should certainly look into the Patriots but also the rest of the league. Specter is coming off like an upset fan rather than generally interested in the integrity of the game.

Whatever happens, they aren't going to take any rings away.


Dislike of BB is definitely an issue. But the main issue I take with the "why hasn't anyone else been caught yet" line of thinking is that there aren't many people in the league willing to flush their careers down the toilet by throwing their old bosses under the bus.
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby JRM4833 » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:42 pm

Yoda wrote:
JRM4833 wrote:Does anyone else think it's worth noting that the Patriots have already received far more punishment than McGuire, Bonds, Clemens, etc. put together? Taking away Super Bowls, especially with no evidence at all, is absurd.

Also, Arlen Spector has already admitted he wouldn't be going forward with the investigation if his team weren't involved.

But that said, I certainly want all the facts and eventually want to put this behind us. At some point do we accept the NFL Commissioners word for it?


Pats received a punishment because they were caught cheating and they admitted it. Not to mention illegal video taping is against the rules while HGH/steroids were not at the time those guys took them. But why let facts get in the way?


I'm not sure where you're coming from at all. I never said they didn't deserve the penalty. Did you even bother reading what I responded to so you'd have an idea what I was talking about? Maybe you should try? Then you'd know I was responding to someone who said Clemens, Bonds, et al suffered "major consequences." Do you really agree with that?

At what point in time were steroids not against the rules? You know they're illegal right? And I'm the one not letting facts get in the way? :-D
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby bigken117 » Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:51 pm

Yoda wrote:Pats received a punishment because they were caught cheating and they admitted it. Not to mention illegal video taping is against the rules while HGH/steroids were not at the time those guys took them. But why let facts get in the way?


MLB rules bypass federal laws? Is that a fact?
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby Yoda » Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:28 am

bigken117 wrote:
Yoda wrote:Pats received a punishment because they were caught cheating and they admitted it. Not to mention illegal video taping is against the rules while HGH/steroids were not at the time those guys took them. But why let facts get in the way?


MLB rules bypass federal laws? Is that a fact?


Did I say that? What is the law against for using steroids? Is it a felony? Do you go to jail?

Tell me what is worse. Certain individuals cheating or an entire organization cheating?
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby bigken117 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:17 am

Yoda wrote:
bigken117 wrote:
Yoda wrote:Pats received a punishment because they were caught cheating and they admitted it. Not to mention illegal video taping is against the rules while HGH/steroids were not at the time those guys took them. But why let facts get in the way?


MLB rules bypass federal laws? Is that a fact?


Did I say that? What is the law against for using steroids? Is it a felony? Do you go to jail?

Tell me what is worse. Certain individuals cheating or an entire organization cheating?


Um yeah you said steroids weren't illegal when those guys took them.

Cheating is cheating it doesn't matter the level. Would it be OK if you're wife cheated on you by kissing another guy or is it worse if she goes all the way? Exactly, they both suck, and either way you'd feel hurt. You wouldn't say "well she only kissed a guy so it's not as bad and I'll defend her". There is no one is worse than another.

Even though it may never be proven, like Bonds and Clemens who only achieved the most success so they are dragged through the nud the most, they weren't the first to juice, the Pats weren't the first to videotape. It's not like Belichik came up with the idea on his own as soon as he got hired he had an epiphany.
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby Yoda » Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:13 pm

bigken117 wrote:Um yeah you said steroids weren't illegal when those guys took them.


They weren't according to MLB rules. You are just trying to twist my words.

bigken117 wrote:Cheating is cheating it doesn't matter the level. Would it be OK if you're wife cheated on you by kissing another guy or is it worse if she goes all the way? Exactly, they both suck, and either way you'd feel hurt. You wouldn't say "well she only kissed a guy so it's not as bad and I'll defend her". There is no one is worse than another.


Not sure what point you are trying to make here but anyway. A player here and there cheating is not as bad as an entire organization cheating for 8 years. Think of it this way. A few students cheating on a few exams versus an entire school including the principal, teachers and students allowing cheating to go on for 8 years. What do you think is worse?

bigken117 wrote:Even though it may never be proven, like Bonds and Clemens who only achieved the most success so they are dragged through the nud the most, they weren't the first to juice, the Pats weren't the first to videotape. It's not like Belichik came up with the idea on his own as soon as he got hired he had an epiphany.


I do agree with this part. I am not saying the Pats would have been bad if not for cheating. They might have won all three Superbowls but how likely is that when they won each by 3 pts? Can you at least admit that cheating has aided their success?
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby BronXBombers51 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:34 pm

bigken117 wrote:
Yoda wrote:Pats received a punishment because they were caught cheating and they admitted it. Not to mention illegal video taping is against the rules while HGH/steroids were not at the time those guys took them. But why let facts get in the way?


MLB rules bypass federal laws? Is that a fact?


Nobody is talking about federal law. We are talking about the laws of baseball. Steroids were not against baseball rules. So those players who took them were not cheating in baseball. Videotaping the opposition is against NFL rules, therefore the Pats did cheat.

It's not that difficult of a concept.
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby Madison » Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:00 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:Nobody is talking about federal law. We are talking about the laws of baseball.


It's the same old argument. The laws of baseball don't override federal law. If federal law says something is illegal, then it is illegal regardless of what MLB says or doesn't say.
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