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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby BronXBombers51 » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:57 pm

I agree that this is much worse than the steroid "scandal." If the Patriots were the only team doing this, then they had a clear advantage over other teams, not just for an isolated season, but for the better part of a decade. Football is all about gameplan. You need to predict what type of game the opponent is going to play and do your best to counter their attack. If you know the oppositions signals and plays, that gives you an enormous leg-up in game-planning, and might explain why Belicheck is touted as a genius.
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby Yoda » Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:30 pm

AussieDodger wrote:Hooray! You guys got your own morality thread!
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby Yoda » Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:38 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:I agree that this is much worse than the steroid "scandal." If the Patriots were the only team doing this, then they had a clear advantage over other teams, not just for an isolated season, but for the better part of a decade. Football is all about gameplan. You need to predict what type of game the opponent is going to play and do your best to counter their attack. If you know the oppositions signals and plays, that gives you an enormous leg-up in game-planning, and might explain why Belicheck is touted as a genius.


Exactly. Football is more about game plans and play calling compared to baseball. Knowing what your opponent is about to do based on all the video tapes of practices would give you a huge leg up. They won all 3 Superbowls by 3 points or less, the smallest of margin. Even one call made in an entire game thanks to your video tapes could be the difference. This was not about just a few select players who decided to break the rules and take advantage but an entire team that included the managers and coaches.
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby JRM4833 » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:09 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:
bigken117 wrote:
If people keep Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, etc out of the hall for cheating, then I hope they take away all those SB trophies from the Pats.


Should they take away all of Clemens' WS rings and Cy's? And Bonds' MVP's? :-? It's good to know that you care more about the integrity of the game though.


I don't want to speak for him, but I think he was just saying that he wants them to be treated equally. That is, if Bonds and Clemens are going to suffer major consequences for steroid use, then the Patriots need to suffer major consequences for cheating as well.


Does anyone else think it's worth noting that the Patriots have already received far more punishment than McGuire, Bonds, Clemens, etc. put together? Taking away Super Bowls, especially with no evidence at all, is absurd.

Also, Arlen Spector has already admitted he wouldn't be going forward with the investigation if his team weren't involved.

But that said, I certainly want all the facts and eventually want to put this behind us. At some point do we accept the NFL Commissioners word for it?
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby mweir145 » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:34 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:I saw some of the Clemens/MacNamee hearing yesterday, and now this. With the war in the middle east, the subprime mortgage mess, the upcoming recession, eduction problems etc. is anyone offended that Congressmen and Senators are wasting their time and this crap just so that they can get more camera time?

There should be a movement to convince people to not vote for Specter or any elected official involved in the steroids investigation.

A lot of people forget this, but John McCain was a huge part of the congressional hearings on steroids in baseball a few years ago.
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby mweir145 » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:36 pm

knapplc wrote:Congress has the ability to multi-task. These are billion-dollar corporations that each have huge impacts on our economy. "Nothing better to do?" Look at the collapse of the NHL, and the literally dozens of dollars in lost tax revenue that cost the government. Now imagine if that happened to a real sport.

No, this is stuff that congress should be looking into. ;-)

Except the NHL was never popular in the United States. The MLB simply isn't at risk of collapsing like that.
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby knapplc » Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:53 pm

mweir145 wrote:
knapplc wrote:Congress has the ability to multi-task. These are billion-dollar corporations that each have huge impacts on our economy. "Nothing better to do?" Look at the collapse of the NHL, and the literally dozens of dollars in lost tax revenue that cost the government. Now imagine if that happened to a real sport.

No, this is stuff that congress should be looking into. ;-)

Except the NHL was never popular in the United States. The MLB simply isn't at risk of collapsing like that.


It's an analogy. Because it's not a 1:1 example does not prove it wrong.
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby Yoda » Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:59 pm

JRM4833 wrote:Does anyone else think it's worth noting that the Patriots have already received far more punishment than McGuire, Bonds, Clemens, etc. put together? Taking away Super Bowls, especially with no evidence at all, is absurd.

Also, Arlen Spector has already admitted he wouldn't be going forward with the investigation if his team weren't involved.

But that said, I certainly want all the facts and eventually want to put this behind us. At some point do we accept the NFL Commissioners word for it?


Pats received a punishment because they were caught cheating and they admitted it. Not to mention illegal video taping is against the rules while HGH/steroids were not at the time those guys took them. But why let facts get in the way?
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby Field » Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:56 pm

Yoda wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:I agree that this is much worse than the steroid "scandal." If the Patriots were the only team doing this, then they had a clear advantage over other teams, not just for an isolated season, but for the better part of a decade. Football is all about gameplan. You need to predict what type of game the opponent is going to play and do your best to counter their attack. If you know the oppositions signals and plays, that gives you an enormous leg-up in game-planning, and might explain why Belicheck is touted as a genius.


Exactly. Football is more about game plans and play calling compared to baseball. Knowing what your opponent is about to do based on all the video tapes of practices would give you a huge leg up. They won all 3 Superbowls by 3 points or less, the smallest of margin. Even one call made in an entire game thanks to your video tapes could be the difference. This was not about just a few select players who decided to break the rules and take advantage but an entire team that included the managers and coaches.


Doesn't ever team know that the other team is trying to steal signals? Whether it's buy the human eye or a camera it still attempting to get to the same end. Stealing signals by video camera is probably the more efficient way of doing it, but it's not any real great advantage in-game. It's like writing a paper on a type writer or on a laptop. And, it shouldn't translate game to game since every team changes their signals.

If the taping of the Ram walk-thru is true, that's completely different than in-game taping. That's definitely crossing a line, but nothing new in the game of football. I've heard many comments from those close to the game of football that teams actually ran "fake plays" to throw off the other team in case they were watching. Everyone in media land acts like this is such a novel crime, when in fact it's completely the opposite.

Specter is a clown, but I have no problem with them looking into this as long as long as the investigation thorough and wide-ranging.
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Re: cheaters since 2000

Postby Yoda » Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:06 pm

Field wrote:Doesn't ever team know that the other team is trying to steal signals? Whether it's buy the human eye or a camera it still attempting to get to the same end. Stealing signals by video camera is probably the more efficient way of doing it, but it's not any real great advantage in-game. It's like writing a paper on a type writer or on a laptop. And, it shouldn't translate game to game since every team changes their signals.

If the taping of the Ram walk-thru is true, that's completely different than in-game taping. That's definitely crossing a line, but nothing new in the game of football. I've heard many comments from those close to the game of football that teams actually ran "fake plays" to throw off the other team in case they were watching. Everyone in media land acts like this is such a novel crime, when in fact it's completely the opposite.

Specter is a clown, but I have no problem with them looking into this as long as long as the investigation thorough and wide-ranging.


Good points.

However, if the use of video cameras was so wide spread then how come there are no other teams being brought down like the Pats? I think what the Pats did goes way beyond what is acceptable as stealing signs and spying their opponents. Reason why no other team is being accused of the same and why the Pats were penalized and continue to be investigated.
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