Mark Ellis is Better than Carlos Lee - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Mark Ellis is Better than Carlos Lee

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Mark Ellis is Better than Carlos Lee

Postby bigh0rt » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:21 am

Time to bring it all together. Lee started out 32 runs better than Ellis when looking at raw runs created on offense. That gap closed to 22 runs when adjusting for the difficulty of hitting in the AL, hitting at the Oakland Coliseum, and the fact that Ellis created his runs while using up fewer outs. When fielding is considered, Lee’s lead turns into an eight run advantage for Mark Ellis. Overall, Lee is worth about 26 more runs than a replacement player, which is slightly above average. Ellis sits at about 34 runs better than replacement level, bordering on All-Star selection.

So what’s the moral of the story? Simply put, there’s more to winning baseball games than raw offensive numbers. For one, the ballpark and league contexts of those numbers are important. Defensive position is also important – if Lee could play second base, he’d help his team by allowing some other all-hit, no-field freak to take up space in left field. And lastly, fielding is more than a footnote – one extra play made per week adds up to more than 15 runs per season. Sure, the range of hitting talent is a lot wider than fielding talent, but isn’t the old cliché “defense wins championships”?

The mistake of overrating Carlos Lee types and ignoring Mark Ellis types get compounded when teams throw huge money in the wrong direction. Lee will average a $15 million payday over the next five years even though he’s a $10 million player at best. What could the Astros do with an extra $5 million per season? They could start by paying Mark Ellis’ salary.

Dugout Central >> FULL STORY
Image
bigh0rt
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterGraphics ExpertMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerWeb SupporterPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 24818
(Past Year: 354)
Joined: 3 Jun 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Crowding The Plate

Re: Mark Ellis is Better than Carlos Lee

Postby Ender » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:04 am

As a Brewer fan I couldn't agree more. I was so glad they traded him instead of re-signing him. He doesn't BB enough and his fielding is pretty terrible. He is a great RBI guy because he hits for power and doesn't K as much as most people that do but that is really the only strength to his game. He doesn't even run the bases very well, he steals 3rd sometimes but doesn't do much else well on the bases.
Ender
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

CafeholicFantasy Expert
Posts: 7733
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Mark Ellis is Better than Carlos Lee

Postby J35J » Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:36 pm

Lee > Ellis....real life....fake life...fantasy life...doesn't matter.

Point is taken...and fully understood. I just don't think it should be taken quite to the extreme of Ellis being a better player to have on your team than Lee.
J35J
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 10467
(Past Year: 390)
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Mark Ellis is Better than Carlos Lee

Postby J.C.Fighter » Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:42 pm

Ellis? The guy that gets on fire one week then the next week he's almost waiver wire material? :-°
J.C.Fighter
Major League Manager
Major League Manager


Posts: 1620
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Mark Ellis is Better than Carlos Lee

Postby Old_Style » Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:49 pm

Where's the punchline?
Image
Old_Style
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterPick 3 Weekly WinnerMatchup Meltdown SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 6885
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: at the last neighborhood corner tavern

Re: Mark Ellis is Better than Carlos Lee

Postby Tavish » Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:49 pm

Old_Style wrote:Where's the punchline?

Johnny Damon and Mark Ellis in return for Angel Berroa and AJ Hinch.

When all else fails, Baird makes for a great punchline.

The Ellis > Lee comparison isn't all that far out there. Power hitting corner outfielders are always going to get more attention and money than an all around, above average middle infielder. Chicks dig the long ball.
Image

Bury me a Royal.
Tavish
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterWeb Supporter
Posts: 11070
(Past Year: 26)
Joined: 3 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Mark Ellis is Better than Carlos Lee

Postby Yoda » Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:56 pm

In terms of WS:
Lee
23
25
24
24

Ellis
20
14
21

When Ellis is playing FT, he is pretty close in value. But nearly 40% of Ellis' value comes from defense and Lee has virtually no defensive value as he is atrocious.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
Yoda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 21344
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 15th green...

Re: Mark Ellis is Better than Carlos Lee

Postby Ender » Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:17 pm

Yeah I'm not sure he used the best two players but the point of the article is true for sure. In real baseball defense tends to get ignored when talking about the value of players. Part of the problem is defensive metrics aren't as polished as offensive just yet and of course are harder to quantify visually as a fan watching the game.

People also don't generally realize that OBP is better than SLG since they love the long ball.
Last edited by Ender on Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ender
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

CafeholicFantasy Expert
Posts: 7733
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Mark Ellis is Better than Carlos Lee

Postby OneLoveBoomer » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:13 pm

meh. :-t
OneLoveBoomer
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 6184
(Past Year: 1)
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: The offseason.

Re: Mark Ellis is Better than Carlos Lee

Postby RugbyD » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:55 pm

Yoda wrote:In terms of WS:
Lee
23
25
24
24

Ellis
20
14
21

When Ellis is playing FT, he is pretty close in value. But nearly 40% of Ellis' value comes from defense and Lee has virtually no defensive value as he is atrocious.

how would this convert to $$$? would be linear, marginally increasing, or marginally decreasing?
TennCare rocks!!!!
RugbyD
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe Ranker
Posts: 5591
Joined: 7 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: punting small dogs and being surly

Next

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 5 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Saturday, Sep. 20
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

LA Dodgers at Chi Cubs
(1:05 pm)
Detroit at Kansas City
(1:05 pm)
Toronto at NY Yankees
(4:05 pm)
Philadelphia at Oakland
(4:05 pm)
Arizona at Colorado
(4:10 pm)
Boston at Baltimore
(7:05 pm)
Milwaukee at Pittsburgh
(7:05 pm)
Chi White Sox at Tampa Bay
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Cleveland at Minnesota
(7:10 pm)
Washington at Miami
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Seattle at Houston
(7:10 pm)
NY Mets at Atlanta
(7:10 pm)
Cincinnati at St. Louis
(7:15 pm)
San Francisco at San Diego
(8:40 pm)
Texas at LA Angels
(9:05 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact