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Roger Clemens: Do We Believe the One or the Many?

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Roger Clemens: Do We Believe the One or the Many?

Postby DRAFTAHOLIC » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:02 pm

When I have had the unfortunate moment of coming across a COPS television program, I would laugh when I watched stupid crooks running from the police. "Those guys always get caught", I would think. Today we have the unfortunate moment of watching Roger Clemens run from accusations.

When Mr. Clemens was accused by McNamee, I thought to myself that this guy was naming a big name to make the Mitchell Report seem valid. Today when Andy Pettitte 's deposition was read saying that he remembers a conversation when Roger Clemens took HGH, that news seemed to put Roger Clemens on the wrong side of the law, as if He is the one running from Justice.

I still do not want to believe that Roger Clemens lied about his drug use, he has been a hero of mine for years. I still do not want to believe that a person who worked out regularly, would even think about being dosed over 20 times in his career. Yet how many people have to come forward pointing an accusation at Roger Clemens before the truth is known? Roger himself changed his wording first saying "never" to a question and later changing it to "I don't recall". The most innocent of people can have their wording revised to come out sounding less then credible. Jesus Christ's own words have been used against him, out of context, in order to make him sound less then credible, so anything is possible.

Could Roger still be telling us the truth? Could all the people be "mis-remembering"? Could the "facts" have been altered? It is possible and here is why it is possible. If it can be proven that Brian McNamee account that Roger being at the Canseco party was inaccurate, it would discredit Brian's testimony. Roger has already been proven innocent from the Time's article accusation. Brian McNamee said he mistrusted Roger Clemens to a degree? Why would he still work for someone he felt was unethical? Also Brian said he never considered using the needles as evidence yet he kept it? How does that sound viable? Brian has repeatedly lied to those seeking the truth on this topic. Roger Clemens has not been proved a lier yet. So who would you chose to believe? The lier or the hard working professional?

At the time I write this article we have yet to hear evidence about the needles that have been brought into evidence. It will be proven if these needles were at all doctored. It can be proven if these needles have B-12 in them (Brian McNamee denies that possibility) or HGH. It might be proven if the blood of Roger Clemens is within these needles. Then we might have the evidence needed.

So what do we have so far before us? Brian McNamee has had credibility problems in the past, can we really trust him now? Andy Pettitte believes he remembers a conversation, can he really be sure? Can anyone really remember a past conversation verbatum? Roger Clemens has stood by his answer to the Mitchell Report and he has no reason to fall back on that answer now. He already realizes his name has been dragged through the mud and that his name has been tainted. If he admitted to using HGH would that have made things worse then they are now? Roger would most likely have been kept out of the Hall of Fame. If no sure conclusion comes from the inquiries on Roger, will Roger still be kept out of the Hall of Fame, on mere speculation? Mark McGwire is so why not Roger?

It makes sense therefore for Roger to deny, especially if he is telling the truth. He wants his name cleared first and foremost and I do hope he becomes exonerated. How can any of us believe Brian McNamee is telling the truth after it has been proven he is an outright liar?

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Re: Roger Clemens: Do We Believe the One or the Many?

Postby Nitrayn » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:50 pm

here is how I view todays hearing, and I watched them from git to gat.

I am not convinced BEYOND A SHADOW OF A REASONABLE DOUBT that Roger Clemens used/took HGH or Steroids.

McNamee's testimony cannot be credited, despite Pettite and Knoblauch. And since Andy Pettite has been caught in a lie, first he cheated baseball by using HGH, then denied it in the LA Times thing, then says he did it twice with McNamee...and then he says oh yeah, I did it one more time.....uhm excuse me, he's not that honest or religious of a guy. And now he's doing this out of fear of god?

Most media and the majority of the public are going to come to a conclusion of guilt for Roger. I have alreadyy seen it on Around The Horn today. He is going to be branded for life as linked to this. I doubt he will be a first ballot hall of famer, if he get in at all.

I believe it is possible he used these substances. He squirmed too much. I am sure it's hard to recollect everything you said, the pressure in that situation is high. he woulda been FAR better off to skip the meetings and took it to court, where his lawyers coulda done there thing. Today made him look bad.

Like I said, I think he may have used, but nothing that has came out has proven that for sure, therefore, in my eyes, he is innocent, and a first ballot HOF until proved otherwise
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Re: Roger Clemens: Do We Believe the One or the Many?

Postby Marvelous Merv » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:33 pm

I think Clemens is a lying sack of sh*t.

McNamee isn't an unusual witness in a drug-related case. If jurors (or in this case, Congressmen) had to evaluate a witness based upon being an upstanding member of the community, society would be awash in drug dealers no one would be able to proscecute.

I think its pretty clear what McNamee did (and in retrospect he was a pretty wise guy). He NEVER fully trusted Clemens. In fact, he knew him well enough NOT to trust him. But at the same time, he kinda liked the guy and respected him as one of his meal tickets. I have many acquaintances who's company I enjoy who might be described as casual friends, to whom I wouldn't lend money, go into business with and wouldn't be surprised if they paid for their new snowmobiles with money from...shall we say...illicit sources. McNamee knew JUST what to expect from Clemens.

McNamee did have enough respect for Clemens that he consistently tried to minimize the damage his information would do to Clemens on an incremental basis. Pettitte did the same thing. They both let what they knew out little by little - that doesn't make them out-and-out liars as much as it makes them guilty of slow motion damage control. And as Clemens continually denied the allegations, McNamee rolled out more information. It reminds me of what might have happened in high school - you get busted for buying beer for an underage kid. And you tell the cops "I only did it that once". Then the kid tells the cops you put the beer in his car without his knowledge. So you say "Not only did I buy for him this time, I bought for the little bastard every week for the past three months". As the kids continues to maintain his innocence you finally blurt out that you've been buying for him because you've been banging his mom since last summer while his dad was away and you wanted him to keep his mouth shut. And then the little nuclear plume forms over East Podunk. Its a slow game of ratcheting up the information you have to match the perceived injustice done unto you. That's the game McNamee has been playing and Clemens keeps on getting burned - this guy is now Clemens worst nightmare.
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Re: Roger Clemens: Do We Believe the One or the Many?

Postby DRAFTAHOLIC » Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:51 am

Well since this isn't a criminal trial that doesn't matter much


Tell that to the people who laid into him as if it were a criminal trial. They sure sounded as if Clemens was on trial. "You do understand that you are under oath, you know you are saying this under oath". Those goobers wanted to intimidate Clemens. It was a darn show, that is what it was.

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Re: Roger Clemens: Do We Believe the One or the Many?

Postby quitesanemax » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:11 pm

Its kind of like if my kid sneaks a cookie from the cookie jar. I might know she did it, but I can't prove it, so all I can do is remind her that if I find out she did it, not only is she guilty of the crime, but she is also guilty of lying to me... which, in most parent's opinion, is the worse of the two crimes.

If Clemens is guilty, he may rethink his strategy under those circumstances, but he needs to be continually reminded that he is under oath. And lets face it here, thats the danger for Clemens right now. If he is caught lying under oath, hes going to get into more trouble for that than he ever would have for doing steroids. On the one hand, you would think he is smart enough to realize this, and so with that in mind, he must be innocent... but with everything he says, the guy just seems to keep on digging himself into a deeper hole... the circumstantial evidence is starting to convince me that he just really isn't all that smart.
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Re: Roger Clemens: Do We Believe the One or the Many?

Postby Marvelous Merv » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:40 pm

The irony is of course, that if Clemens is found guilty of perjury he will be the only member of "Team Clemens" to serve time.
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Re: Roger Clemens: Do We Believe the One or the Many?

Postby Nitrayn » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:06 pm

I think that the only thing a court would have to get Clemens on perjury are his own words perhaps, depending on how the transcripts fully turn out.

For whatever reason he chose to launch this full court attack, he is either has been extremely unfairly painted with a nasty brush by McNamee or is just incredibly stupid.

If he is lying, he had better just stick to his story long and hard and take a tip from the great George Costanza

"Remember, it's not a lie if you believe it"
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Re: Roger Clemens: Do We Believe the One or the Many?

Postby quitesanemax » Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:01 am

Nitrayn wrote:
If he is lying, he had better just stick to his story long and hard and take a tip from the great George Costanza

"Remember, it's not a lie if you believe it"


There has been some speculation to the idea that this is exactly the case. Maybe Roger did take steroids, but has convinced himself, and actually believes, that he did not. Kind of a stretch... but who knows.
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Re: Roger Clemens: Do We Believe the One or the Many?

Postby quitesanemax » Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:07 am

Interesting article... not sure if I give it all that much of a thought though. I know that even when I'm telling the truth, I can get very nervous if I believe that people don't believe what I'm saying (if that makes any sense).

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3244344

Anybody who is married can probably confirm what I am saying here. I sure am glad I'm not married to this lady! Her husband would have to be walking on thin ice all the time! Can you imagine walking around, doing something with her in the room, then suddenly realizing it could be interpreted the wrong way by her, and stopping midstride, then realizing that alone got her attention. What a stressful marriage that would be! Lol.
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