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MAFIAA at it again

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Re: MAFIAA at it again

Postby AcidRock23 » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:23 am

The value of a BRAND NEW song is $.99 @ itunes, less at other vendors like eMusic. One could also argue that most music depreciates as well. I think that their arguments about damages are the absurd part of their argument.
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Re: MAFIAA at it again

Postby knapplc » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:01 am

AcidRock23 wrote:The value of a BRAND NEW song is $.99 @ itunes, less at other vendors like eMusic. One could also argue that most music depreciates as well. I think that their arguments about damages are the absurd part of their argument.

Completely agree, and I sincerely hope some sharp judge or lawmaker somewhere sees this as well. Let's start being realistic, shall we?

The other completely absurd thing about all this is, the people they're pursuing are mostly young, mostly students. Guess what? Students have no money! First rule of lawsuits: Never sue the poor! I just don't get this. To me all the RIAA is doing is going way overboard to try to scare people away from filesharing, but what they're really doing is making themselves look absurd enough that they're no longer believable.

I don't like filesharing; I think it's stealing. But let's be realistic about the damages and possible outcomes of a suit against the perps, shall we?

Tavish wrote:
Madison wrote:If someone robs 10 banks and gets caught, they don't get charged with 1 robbery. They get charged with 10. Yes? They don't just forfeit the money and go to jail on 1 robbery count.

If someone steals music from 10 different artists, then why would they only get hit with 1 charge? Makes sense to me to hit them with a charge for anyone/everyone they stole from.

So what am I missing? :-?

The analogy to fit this is, if you stole a CD from Best Buy, they want to be able to charge you with 10 crimes. One for each song on the CD. Which of course makes for another mind blowing reach of logic by the RIAA. Imagine if the fine for stealing a CD from a brick and motar was $1.5 million. That is one valuable CD.

To use the bank analogy it is charging you with a crime for each individual bill you stole.


The weird thing is I can see the truth in both examples. I can see how Mad's example would be the better analogy, and I can see the same for Tavish's. It's like bizarro world.
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Re: MAFIAA at it again

Postby Madison » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:02 am

Tavish wrote:
Madison wrote:If someone robs 10 banks and gets caught, they don't get charged with 1 robbery. They get charged with 10. Yes? They don't just forfeit the money and go to jail on 1 robbery count.

If someone steals music from 10 different artists, then why would they only get hit with 1 charge? Makes sense to me to hit them with a charge for anyone/everyone they stole from.

So what am I missing? :-?

The analogy to fit this is, if you stole a CD from Best Buy, they want to be able to charge you with 10 crimes. One for each song on the CD. Which of course makes for another mind blowing reach of logic by the RIAA. Imagine if the fine for stealing a CD from a brick and motar was $1.5 million. That is one valuable CD.

To use the bank analogy it is charging you with a crime for each individual bill you stole.


That doesn't fit. :-?

The whole thing was talking about putting together compilation CD's. Not stealing one that's already prepackaged and been approved by the record labels, artists, etc. As to the bank analogy, that doesn't fit either. You don't get charged with a crime for each bill, you get charged for each robbery. To put together a pirated compilation disk, one has to steal from several sources.

What you're arguing is that someone who robs 10 banks should argue that they put all the stolen money (songs) into one account (compiled it), so they should only be charged with 1 robbery. I disagree with that notion.
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Re: MAFIAA at it again

Postby Tavish » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:29 am

Madison wrote:The whole thing was talking about putting together compilation CD's. Not stealing one that's already prepackaged and been approved by the record labels, artists, etc. As to the bank analogy, that doesn't fit either. You don't get charged with a crime for each bill, you get charged for each robbery. To put together a pirated compilation disk, one has to steal from several sources.


Soundtracks are compilation CDs, the highest selling album in history is a compilation album along with nearly half of the Top 20 highest selling albums. Burning a copy of The Eagles Greatest Hits and making it available for download (or giving the copy to a friend) would be subject to 10 counts of copyright infringement at penalty of up to $150,000 per infringement.

Along the same lines, and I guess this would determine how you sit on the matter. The current max fine for copying an entire album is $150K.
If a person downloads one song (1/10th of the album) do you think they should be liable for the entire $150,000 amount?
If they download two songs from that album do you think they should be liable for the entire album amount twice?
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Re: MAFIAA at it again

Postby Madison » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:41 am

Tavish wrote:
Madison wrote:The whole thing was talking about putting together compilation CD's. Not stealing one that's already prepackaged and been approved by the record labels, artists, etc. As to the bank analogy, that doesn't fit either. You don't get charged with a crime for each bill, you get charged for each robbery. To put together a pirated compilation disk, one has to steal from several sources.


Soundtracks are compilation CDs, the highest selling album in history is a compilation album along with nearly half of the Top 20 highest selling albums. Burning a copy of The Eagles Greatest Hits and making it available for download (or giving the copy to a friend) would be subject to 10 counts of copyright infringement at penalty of up to $150,000 per infringement.

Along the same lines, and I guess this would determine how you sit on the matter. The current max fine for copying an entire album is $150K.
If a person downloads one song (1/10th of the album) do you think they should be liable for the entire $150,000 amount?
If they download two songs from that album do you think they should be liable for the entire album amount twice?


I think the difference we're looking at is simply how many times does one have to commit the act.

For stealing a compilation disk that has already been approved by all parties, it only takes one act of theft to steal the entire thing. Doesn't matter if it's online or in a store. So for me, that would be 1 charge.

If someone's making their own compilation disk, then they have to steal from several sources, be it online or in a store. For me, that would result in a charge for every single act of theft.

Bank robbers get hit with a full burglary count regardless of if they steal every nickel in the bank, or manage to only end up with a few hundred. Be like charging a carjacker for a misdemeanor because he stole a car and only wanted the steering wheel. He doesn't get charged with anything less than grand theft. Theft is theft. There really is no defense for it.

Again though, I agree that they seem to be going to far and getting too crazy and wild with it, but that's the world we live in. No one is teaching that theft is wrong, so it's taking punishments of crazy proportions to get the point across and get the word out that stealing is bad and there are consequences for those actions. There is no "ok" stealing, or "no big deal" stealing, contrary to popular belief, theft is theft and stealing is stealing. No one's teaching that anymore, so seeing the RIAA go overboard to make the point and get the word out isn't something I can really fault them too much for.
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Re: MAFIAA at it again

Postby Art Vandelay » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:59 am

The RIAA is ridiculous. I'm with Knapp in that I don't practice or condone the downloading of music, but all the RIAA is doing is alienating a huge portion of their customer base, and essentially their entire future customer base. The paradigm is shifting, but instead of devising a new business model that will allow them to exist and continue to thrive in the 21st century, they are using scare tactics and bullying to try to scare people into maintaining the status quo. Many smaller and independent record labels and artists have found ways to thrive despite (and sometimes because of) downloading, it's not impossible.
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Re: MAFIAA at it again

Postby Tavish » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:12 pm

Madison wrote:Bank robbers get hit with a full burglary count regardless of if they steal every nickel in the bank, or manage to only end up with a few hundred. Be like charging a carjacker for a misdemeanor because he stole a car and only wanted the steering wheel. He doesn't get charged with anything less than grand theft. Theft is theft. There really is no defense for it.


Of course there is no defense for theft, you will never see me defend a person who pirates copyrighted material. But the complete and utter lack of common sense on the part of the law makers as they are bowing down to the RIAA is an even bigger crime in my eyes. It is nothing more than shock and awe and using a powerful lobby to try and force a dying business model on to consumers who have moved on. Soap box aside, back to this issue. :-D

The bank robbers are hit with a theft charge regardless, just like the pirate is hit with a copyright infringement charge regardless. The attempt to change how the IP law works in this case would be trying to make the reverse happen in the car analogy. If I broke in to a car and stole the steering wheel, they want to be able to charge me with stealing the steering wheel and the radio and the hubcaps, etc. If I did steal the entire car they want to be able to charge me with 100s of counts of theft, one for each individual piece of the car. And not only that, they want they want each individual charge of theft (one for the radio, one for the steering wheel, etc )to carry the same weight as stealing the entire car.
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Re: MAFIAA at it again

Postby Madison » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:08 pm

Tavish wrote:
Madison wrote:Bank robbers get hit with a full burglary count regardless of if they steal every nickel in the bank, or manage to only end up with a few hundred. Be like charging a carjacker for a misdemeanor because he stole a car and only wanted the steering wheel. He doesn't get charged with anything less than grand theft. Theft is theft. There really is no defense for it.


Of course there is no defense for theft, you will never see me defend a person who pirates copyrighted material. But the complete and utter lack of common sense on the part of the law makers as they are bowing down to the RIAA is an even bigger crime in my eyes. It is nothing more than shock and awe and using a powerful lobby to try and force a dying business model on to consumers who have moved on. Soap box aside, back to this issue. :-D

The bank robbers are hit with a theft charge regardless, just like the pirate is hit with a copyright infringement charge regardless. The attempt to change how the IP law works in this case would be trying to make the reverse happen in the car analogy. If I broke in to a car and stole the steering wheel, they want to be able to charge me with stealing the steering wheel and the radio and the hubcaps, etc. If I did steal the entire car they want to be able to charge me with 100s of counts of theft, one for each individual piece of the car. And not only that, they want they want each individual charge of theft (one for the radio, one for the steering wheel, etc )to carry the same weight as stealing the entire car.


The utter lack of common sense of the kids stealing the music and not realizing it is illegal is the worst thing about the entire situation. And those that think it's no big deal to steal music would be second on my list (almost #1). Remember the last thread about this? Some crazy high percentage of kids said they didn't know it was illegal. That's just sad that the world is in such a place. Ok, off my soap box too now. :-b

All of the pieces of one car is still one car. Like stealing one compilation disk from Best Buy. Now if you stole the steering wheel from one car, the hubcaps from another, the battery from another, the rims from another, those counts start adding up. Now if you mean stealing an actual CD titled "ZZ Top's Greatest Hits", and being charged for theft of each individual song, I agree that's pretty stupid. However, if there were no "ZZ Top's Greatest Hits" CD, and someone stole 10 songs to make their own, then 10 counts of theft should be in play. My take on it anyway. Not worth anything, but I've got a big mouth, so what can I say? :-D
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Re: MAFIAA at it again

Postby JTWood » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:48 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe anyone's charged with a crime that will send them to prison. They're simply fined for each theft, right? Using the car analogy, if you stole a Mercedez that was $45,000 new, the RIAA would charge you for the $3,375,000,000. Milk that cost $4.00? $300,000 fine. Handful of Chiclets that cost a $0.25? $1,875.

If you're stealing music, then sure, you should be required to pay the purchase price and a punitive fee. While the fine should certainly be something to deter others, I hardly think a markup of 75,000x the original price is justifiable. Even Dr. Evil would laugh at that.
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Re: MAFIAA at it again

Postby AussieDodger » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:08 pm

Madison wrote:The utter lack of common sense of the kids stealing the music and not realizing it is illegal is the worst thing about the entire situation. And those that think it's no big deal to steal music would be second on my list (almost #1). Remember the last thread about this? Some crazy high percentage of kids said they didn't know it was illegal. That's just sad that the world is in such a place. Ok, off my soap box too now. :-b


If it is such a "naughty" thing to do, then why is it so easy/legal to get and have our "burglary tools"
You know, CD burner (legal), computer that plays and can modify music (legal), file-sharing sites (still on internet, if they were such a big deal there would be none), blank cds (legal).

Sorry to all you soap box guys but I love file-sharing. Because it is file-SHARING. If some stranger wants to share Frank Zappa's Dynamo Humm with me, and they want to upload Pink Floyd's Comfortably Numb from me, then that's fine. Are either of us making money off this transaction?

Back in the 1980s, what did they do about people recording songs off the radio onto tape? Or people with the double tape decks that made tapes and SHARED them with their friends? NOTHING!!!!!!! :-D
In my house growing up we had a double tape stereo and I shared songs with my friends. Did a music industry lawyer come banging on my door? No no and double no!


!!!!




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