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What do you think of this scoring format?

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What do you think of this scoring format?

Postby mmgoldman21 » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:07 pm

Any suggestions on the scoring format? Is this going to be too much?


13x13 roto with the following hitting categories. BA weighted 2. BA x2, R, RBI, RBI+R, HR, SB, SB%, OBP, SLG, OPS, AB/Ground Double Play, AB/K, Fielding%.

Pitching Categories: ERA x2, WHIP, BAA, K/BB ratio, K, W, W%, QS, CG, SO, Save, Save+Holds, Save and Hold %.

There will be between 15 and 20 teams.

0-3 keepers will be allowed each year. If you choose to keep somebody, he will be in place of a draft pick 2 rounds higher than where he was drafted the previous season. Nobody in the first 2 rounds of the draft will be allowed to be kept.

There are a few spots still open if you want to try this. $40 buy in with all money except for $80 CBS legaue fee back top third of the league. Reply here or send an e-mail to me at mmgoldman21@gmail.com
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Re: What do you think of this scoring format?

Postby MTUCache » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:56 pm

mmgoldman21 wrote:BA x2, R, RBI, RBI+R, HR, SB, SB%, OBP, SLG, OPS, AB/Ground Double Play, AB/K, Fielding%.

Erm... that looks like 14 categories.

SB%?
AB/GDP?
RBI+R?
OBP, SLG, and OPS?

Feels like you're just reaching here.
Honestly, two thirds of these categories aren't even worth half of batting average, rbi, hr, etc.

Pitching Categories: ERA x2, WHIP, BAA, K/BB ratio, K, W, W%, QS, CG, SO, Save, Save+Holds, Save and Hold %.


This time you've got 15 categories. Most of these seem a little better than the offensive statistics, although W%, CG, and S+H could all be deleted very easily.

There will be between 15 and 20 teams.

Okay... no problems here.

0-3 keepers will be allowed each year. If you choose to keep somebody, he will be in place of a draft pick 2 rounds higher than where he was drafted the previous season. Nobody in the first 2 rounds of the draft will be allowed to be kept.

No keeping guys in the first two rounds... okay. I guess I can see this. You're rewarding those who can find sleepers and +value guys. That's fine, as long as you're okay with the same owners continuing to dominate every year. Those owners who can spot talent early (or read a lot of forums like this) will scoop up all the future stars, and all the known stars will be split fairly evenly among the others.

There are a few spots still open if you want to try this. $40 buy in with all money except for $80 CBS legaue fee back top third of the league. Reply here or send an e-mail to me at mmgoldman21@gmail.com

Thanks for the offer. I'll pass. ;-D
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Re: What do you think of this scoring format?

Postby mmgoldman21 » Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:13 pm

Thanks for the input. I agree with most of it.

Theare are 13 hittings and 13 pitching with BA and ERA counting double. I agree with you that some of those categories may not be as important in a real game. That is why I have RBI+Runs to double count each RBI or Run. Also, OBP, SLG and OPS really makes extra base hits important and HR. SB% should help benefit those guys who just don't have the opportunity to run all the time but are successful when they do. Of course it may be difficult predict exactly who would be best in certain categories in a given year.

For the keepers, I forgot to mention that any keeper would be in place of at least a 12th round draft pick in the first year, even rookies, or undrafted waiver signs. Also, only 3 keepers at most allowed. This should avoid having a few teams load up on young talent since you're not getting them in place of really late draft picks. I have run leagues where you cant keep guys in the first 7 rounds before....it keeps every redraft very important and it makes every owner feel like they have a good shot to get the studs of the league to build their teams around. Of course it always helps to have a few important keepers as well.
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Re: What do you think of this scoring format?

Postby Matthias » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:00 pm

Way too scattered of categories. Less is more.

On the pitching side, CG & SO's are too random to draft well. You're counting Saves three times: Saves + Holds is fine. If you want to do Saves + Holds - Blown Saves then you cover the idea of opportunity vs. quality. If you want Wins and Win%, just do Wins - Losses.

On the hitting side, hitting into a double-play really isn't important enough to get its own category. Either is striking out, really. The way I see it, any harm done by a strike out versus a ball put into play is considered in other stats (you can get a fly out negated by a sac, you can still get an RBI, etc.).

First, get it down to at MAX 7x7, 6x6 is better. And then consider how you would approach the draft if you were joining the league: is there a particular type of player that seems really strong in this system? More so than just by their virtue of their abilities? If so, then you should tweak the settings some.
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Re: What do you think of this scoring format?

Postby rusmo » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:06 pm

Anything over 6x6 is overkill to me. Redundancies and inequivalencies start popping up. Trying to equate OPS with AB/K seems more than a little odd to me.

A points-based scoring system (where you assign positive and negative points for each HR, GIDP, etc) matches up better with the volume of stats you're looking to track.
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Re: What do you think of this scoring format?

Postby mmgoldman21 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:46 pm

Matthias wrote:Way too scattered of categories. Less is more.

On the pitching side, CG & SO's are too random to draft well. .


I agree it's hard to tell before a draft, but I feel they are still important to count the pitcher's truely great games as more. It will create more luck into the league rather than having all the "fantasy experts" winning all the time.

Matthias wrote:You're counting Saves three times: Saves + Holds is fine. If you want to do Saves + Holds - Blown Saves then you cover the idea of opportunity vs. quality. If you want Wins and Win%, just do Wins - Losses.


Saves+Holds-BS would still basically only reward the teams with lots of relievers, not just quality by doing strictly a percentage. Saves are counted 3 times, but starters have lots of other categories to control, such as QS, W, CG, SO, K....I am trying to keep it balanced between starters and relievers.

Matthias wrote:On the hitting side, hitting into a double-play really isn't important enough to get its own category. Either is striking out, really. The way I see it, any harm done by a strike out versus a ball put into play is considered in other stats (you can get a fly out negated by a sac, you can still get an RBI, etc.).


Those other stats, such as RBI, Run any hits are all double/triple counted. So having one less meaningful category such as K and GDP although still meaningful, is not nearly as meaningful as the hits and RBIs.
Also, I would say a K is much worse than a flyout or groundout because you have no chance of moving a baserunner, or getting on from an error. Also, GDP is obviously not good to winning games.

I like hearing your opinions on things, I am in other leagues with less categories and do find those enjoyable. I am going for something different here, where everything counts and trying to keep everything balanced. Obviously some of the categories aren't as important, which is why they are not double or triple counted.

I am also running a H2H league where everything counts...I'm trying to bring that scoring system over to roto because I usually like roto better, but I also like H2H leagues where everything counts.

Is this a good roto scoring system where everything counts and fairly weights the more important stats?
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Re: What do you think of this scoring format?

Postby Matthias » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:09 pm

Well, what people like about doing fantasy baseball is having their predictions validated: "I thought so-and-so was going to have a break-out year and I was right!" There's very little in the way of predictive value in CGs or SOs... some, but not much. So you're just saying that a certain part of your league is going to be out-and-out luck. In which case, you may as well stipulate, "And at the end of the year, we'll draw straws for bonus points to be added on to our scores." It would certainly be unpredictable, but I don't know if you're going to get many takers.

Really, it's much better to balance out counting stats and rate stats of the same statistic via a +/- on that stat. So if you're worried that just having saves + holds - blown saves will result in people over-drafting RPs, then find out what the league-wide average blown save %age is... say, 20%. Then do the formula: Saves + Holds - ((1-0.2)/0.2)*Blown Saves, or: S + HD - 4*Blown Saves. Ditto for Win %age. You get the same result that people just socking in any old reliever is going to have problems without worrying how many times you're counting a statistic or how, exactly, the %age can be manipulated and minimum sample size and what not.

Alternatively, if you do the categories right, you shouldn't have to really worry about that, anyways, since any slot that someone fills with an RP deprives them of a useful spot in another category.

I still stick to what I said about your hitting categories. There's a difference between something being, "bad" and something being equal to X% of value of some other factor. You could look at what Bill James has done with his Runs Created stat to see how the values he has come up with for things such as K's and DP's, maybe use some some SABR metric which incorporates the things which you think are important, but in a systematic way. But really, you need to pare down. You're going to have a hard time finding 5 owners, much less 15-20, to agree to your system.
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Re: What do you think of this scoring format?

Postby mmgoldman21 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:42 pm

You have good points with all this, mabe my league will agree and think there are too many categories and change it for next year. I have 13 people now for the league, so I will see how it goes for this season.

There isn't much of a difference in having a formula like the one you proposed for counting blown saves and having a percentage. I think percentage makes more sense becuase it's more clear exactly what it means rather than having something like 15 in something like a S+H-4*BS category.

I do think there is alot of predictability in all the stats I have. There will need be some balancing needed in the draft to truely do well.
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