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Info on a Keeper/Dynasty Auction System?

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Info on a Keeper/Dynasty Auction System?

Postby MTUCache » Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:46 pm

Guys,

I'm currently in the planning stages for a new league this year, which I'm going to take a pretty large part in forming and running.

Ideally, I'd like to expand this into a dynasty or keeper system, once we get all of our players on board and figure out if they'd be up for it.

I run into a problem... when I'm going down the road of a "keeper" system, I'd like to find some way to make sure that the players who have favorite, must-have players have an opportunity to get them. So, a serpentine draft system doesn't seem to be the way to go in the first year of the league.... auction makes more sense. But, if we do have the opportunity to keep this league going for several years, serpentine drafts seem the easiest (taking keepers out of the draft-spots in the rounds they were originally drafted in).

It seems I'm stuck either doing some sort of hybrid "combination" (either in the same year or consecutive years), or coming up with some sort of salary-cap/contract system that would allow lower teams to "re-build" and catch back up to the better teams.

Ultimately, I'm sure I'm way over-thinking this, and most of these guys will never get into FBB as much as I am... but I'd like to have a system in place to offer them this year if I can get a few guys on-board with the project.

Anybody have any links to long-standing leagues that have a well-defined rules system that keeps things fresh, balanced, and fun?
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Re: Info on a Keeper/Dynasty Auction System?

Postby JTWood » Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:36 pm

When I started my contract league, I began it with a draft where we assigned contracts based on the round. Most importantly, the player chosen in every even round for the first 8 rounds was put in the last year of his contract while the player taken in the odd round was placed in a contract that had only one year left on it. We allow extensions, but the initial setup basically seeded the league's free agent pool for the first few years. In this way, we created a league that played like a 4 or 5-year old league right off the bat.
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Re: Info on a Keeper/Dynasty Auction System?

Postby Dobber » Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:48 pm

We developed a hybrid this year that is reaching stage 2 today.

We drafted a "team" from MLB, snake style, for each of 18 GM's. Each GM had a week to pick 4 MLB guys and 2 minor league guys from that parent team, salaries were assigned in "tiers". We determined that 5 teams (NYY, NYM, DET, BOS, PHI) had the best rosters for keepers, according to CBS auction values for 2008, and each team from that tier would be assessed $102 cap hit (35/25/25/15/1/1), with salaries attached to the keepers based on where they ranked in CBS list. (A Rod/Cano/Jeter/Hughes/I Kennedy/Joba for example, in that order). Next tier was 82, then 62, then 42.

Now, we're into the auction phase of the draft, which will fill 17 slots on our roster (thus giving us the 23 man/260 cap most projections are based on).

Then, to fill our rosters, we're doing a hybrid snake draft we called "waterfall" that will be 12 rounds long, giving us 25 MLB/10 minors when we're done. Waterfall means that if you draft 1st in the first round, you'd draft 18th in round 2, 17th in round 3 and so on. Each player selected here is assessed $1 for keeper purposes, but not against the "cap".

Keeper status is all about the salaries. Any MLB guy kept for 2009 would get a $3 raise from previous year (and $3 every successive year after). Any minor league guy kept would stay at auction/waterfall value if they don't get up to MLB standards of 50 IP/130 AB for a career. If not, they'd see the same $3 raise.

Total keepers would be 8 MLB/3 minor league guys, 3 of which have to be the same as the year before.

Maybe some of this will help your thinking.
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Re: Info on a Keeper/Dynasty Auction System?

Postby MTUCache » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:31 am

Wow... great stuff there guys.

Unfortunately, while I would 100% love to get in a league like that, I don't think most of the prospective guys I'm going to get in this league would be up for quite that intensive of a setup process.

JTWood, any more specifics about contract rules and initial draft/auction setup? You wouldn't happen to have a website for that league that explains a little more about it, would you? That sounds like something that I might be able to use a little easier than Dobber's ideas, simply because it's a little easier to sell newer players on.

Thanks guys... keep the ideas and examples coming. Really good stuff.

Also, anybody have any links to sites which layout how to set up these kinds of leagues? Those could be very helpful as well.
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Re: Info on a Keeper/Dynasty Auction System?

Postby StlSluggers » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:39 am

MTUCache wrote:JTWood, any more specifics about contract rules and initial draft/auction setup? You wouldn't happen to have a website for that league that explains a little more about it, would you? That sounds like something that I might be able to use a little easier than Dobber's ideas, simply because it's a little easier to sell newer players on.

Our league started 4 years ago. We've long since cropped the initial startup rules from our rulebook. I'll just rehash...

My league's not traditional. We don't use cash salaries as our cap. Rather, we use years under contract. We have cash, and we use it in our auction, but our league pretends that a player is paid 100% of his contract up front. By making that assumption, we can focus solely on years, plus it comes with the added benefit of allowing us to drop any player at any time regardless of his contract.

So, on that note, what I did with the original draft and contract assignments was this:

1st Round - Franchise Player
2nd Round - 5th year of 5-year contract*
3rd Round - 4th year of 4-year contract
4th Round - 3rd year of 4-year contract
5th Round - 3rd year of 3-year contract
6th Round - 2nd year of 3-year contract
7th Round - 2nd year of 2-year contract
8th Round - 1st year of 2-year contract
9th and beyond - 1st year of 1-year contract

After the draft, we allowed each team to make one contract any length they wanted. So they could take that 10th-round steal and lock him down for as many years as they wanted to take against the cap.

5 years is the max, so the only options are waive the 2nd rounder or keep him and waive the 1st rounder.
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Re: Info on a Keeper/Dynasty Auction System?

Postby MTUCache » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:01 pm

Thanks guys... I'm currently putting together a couple of "proposals" to present to the league (in email form) over the next couple of weeks, to get a feel for what kind of interest I'm going to get.

The first one will be a simpler setup for a very Basic Keeper League.
- Serpentine draft system every year (first year random, pursuant years the opposite of the previous year's final standings)
- Two to Five Keepers (Minimum of 1 Offensive player and 1 Pitching player)
- Redraft Values of Keepers are equal to their original draft position (even through trades), with a minimum of 15th round.
- i.e. Keeping three deep sleepers and your two highest draft picks will cost you your 1st, 2nd, 13th, 14th, and 15th picks.
- After the first Keeper year, Redraft Values of Keepers increase by 1 round.
- i.e. 1st round players can not be kept for more than one (extra) year.
- i.e. Keeping the remaining Keepers in the previous example would cost you your 1st, 12th, 13th, and 14th picks in the following year.

The second one will get somewhat more complicated, still using a serpentine draft system, but using Contract Years instead of "keepers" (still some details to work out as far as re-draft positions).

The third one would be a very intensive system involving free-agent auctions, contract years, restricted free-agents during auctions (for players who's contracts have expired), salary caps, etc, etc... basically going all out for a Monetary System rather than a draft-position system.

I've got a feeling that the first proposal would have strong interest, while the second and third ones would probably only get a couple of interested owners.

The Scoring of the league is basically going to be a 6x6 Roto.
- Offensive Categories : (R), (HR), (RBIs), (SB-CS), (AVG), and either (OPS) or (RC) [Runs Created = OBP*TotalBases]
- Pitching Categories : (W-L), (K-BB), (ERA), (WHIP), (SV-BS), and (OPBA) [SV-BS could just be SV]

The Finances of the league are pretty simple.
- League Site Fees will be divided among all owners equally (to be collected at the draft). I anticipate this to be near $10/owner.
- No transaction fees.
- In each statistical category 100 total points are available, with 30 going to the 1st place team, 20 to 2nd, 15 to 3rd, 10 to 4th/5th, and 5 to 6th/7th/8th.
- The value of each "point" will be agreed upon prior to the draft ($0.25, $0.50, $1, etc).
- Money will be held in Escrow (to be collected at the draft).
- i.e. For a 10 Team, $1/Point league, 1200 points (or $1200) are available, so $120 per owner will be collected.
- i.e. For a 12 Team, $0.25/Point league, 1200 points (or $300) are available, so $25 per owner will be collected.
- i.e. For a 20 Team, $0.50/Point league, 1200 points (or $600) are available, so $30 per owner will be collected.
- Money is paid out at end of the season.
- For League #1 above ($1/10 Team), the most any player could win would be $360 (less the $120 they paid in, for $240 profit).
- For League #2 above ($0.25/12 Team), the most any player could win would be $90 (less the $25 they paid in, for a $65 profit).
- For League #3 above ($0.50/20 Team), the most any player could win would be $180 (less the $30 they paid in, for a $150 profit).

Note: This structure does require a moderate escrow up front from all owners, but it also rewards a much more level playing field. Rather than paying only 1st and 2nd place, in this setup even owners struggling down at 7th or 9th place in each category have something to fight for towards the end of the season. In a 10 player league the owners who can average a 4th or 5th place ranking across the categories will get their money back, and even an owner who places 8th in every category will get half his money back. The only way that any one owner will lose all of his initial escrow is if he fails to get to at least 8th place in any of the 12 categories.

Last question which plagues my mind before I commit to this system... what sites are available which will allow me to set my Roto categories with such specialized statistics (RC, SB-CS, K-BB, etc)???

As always, I appreciate the input.
Last edited by MTUCache on Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Info on a Keeper/Dynasty Auction System?

Postby StlSluggers » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:22 pm

FanStar has over 80 categories (hitting and pitching combined). They can even track the financials you described. Give them a go.

Plus, they're free to try out. ;-) ;-D
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Re: Info on a Keeper/Dynasty Auction System?

Postby DC_Commish » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:45 pm

Personally, for a keeper system, I prefer the basic draft round-based system you described first, because it is easily understood by less experienced owners. By escalating the cost of kept players each year, this system allows owners to keep their most treasured players, albeit at a premium, and forces the eventual recycling of studs. It would hardly satisfy dynasty die-hards, but new leagues are more frequently populated by casual players who want level playing fields every Draft Day.

Honestly, though, you made the best argument yourself.

MTUCache wrote:I've got a feeling that the first proposal would have strong interest, while the second and third ones would probably only get a couple of interested owners.


Especially with a new league, rulemaking by consensus is essential to being a good commissioner. If you have a strong preference for another system, make your case to fellow owners, but it is important that every owner feels he had a voice in the final product. Try building a consensus with a few opinion-leading owners first. You may be surprised that they will care passionately about an issue that seemed incidental to you, or that they will be indifferent about your most prized rule.

Also, I like how you are using (SV-BS) instead of just saves. The former is a better representation of a closer's real-world performance.
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Re: Info on a Keeper/Dynasty Auction System?

Postby Matthias » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:04 pm

We just do an auction league with salary escalations every year: $3 the first year someone is kept, $5 the next year, and $10 every year thereafter. You can keep 3 players and 1 add'l player you purchased for $1 in the draft (makes the end of the draft kind of interesting). That way, if you HAVE TO keep a player forever, there's no restriction saying you can't. You just have to keep pony'ing up the bucks. Also makes implementation easy: I just track players' current salaries and their keeper salaries and then know, out of who is kept, what their next year salary should be.
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Re: Info on a Keeper/Dynasty Auction System?

Postby MTUCache » Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:15 pm

After talking to a couple of the guys, and getting a feel for what they think the rest of the guys will prefer, I think I've got a pretty good system nailed down.

We're probably going to end up doing a 6x6 Roto, with either 10 or 12 teams.

The keeper system is a little complicated, but should be pretty fair, rewarding good owners but not giving them too many advantages that the poorer (or unluckier) owners can't catch back up.
* 2-5 Keepers (at least one offensive player and one pitcher)
- One of your Keepers may be a "Franchise Player" if you choose to do so.
* Franchise Players can be kept at the same draft position as the previous year, but with a minimum draft position of the fifth round. (So guys can keep their first-rounders)
* All other keepers will recieve increasing penalties depending on how long they've been kept.
- The first year a player is kept he will be one position higher than his previous year's draft position (with a minimum draft position of the tenth round).
- The second year a player is kept he will be two positions higher than his previous year's draft position.
- The third year a player is kept he will be three positions higher than his previous year's draft position.
* No player (including Franchise Players) may be kept more than three times (i.e. longer than four consecutive years).
* Keeper players maintain their draft position through trades, waivers, and free-agency. Draft position can only be "re-set" if they are not kept and are in fact re-drafted.
* If an owner does not have ownership of a draft pick in the position or round required (either through draft or having multiple keeper players occupying the same position), the next higher round will be replaced. If no such higher pick exists, he may not keep both players.


I'm pretty happy with this system, and I'm sure once I explain it to the guys who are hesitant about it they'll embrace it as well. It's not as simple as just "keeping" guys, but all the rules are geared towards rewarding good play without making it imbalanced.

The statistics I'm planning on using are the last hurdle before I think all the guys will be on board with this system....

HR, R, RBI, SB-CS, AVG, OBP & W-L, K-BB, SV-BS, ERA, WHIP, OBA

That gives me four counting categories and two averaging categories on offense and three counting categories and three averaging categories on pitching.

My issue is this: With only three counting categories in pitching, it becomes very tempting to load up on Relief Pitchers rather than Starters, as they can help you in four categories and only hurt you in two. With no real good counting category to replace OBA, I'm left trying to fix this loophole with other options. First I thought that I could just make 4SP spots and 2RP spots mandatory, thereby forcing players into having four starters. Then I realized that there are likely going to be a handful of multi-positional pitchers who will be listed as Starters but are actually Relievers.

So, I'm left considering just taking out the OBA statistic and going with an odd-ball 6x5 league. Or, possibly eliminating AVG or OBP and going back to a hybrid 5x5 league.

Any input here guys? Is there any counting category out there I could use that would influence my owners to use more Starting Pitchers and not just load up on closers?
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