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Best rules for a keeper league

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Best rules for a keeper league

Postby tms298 » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:37 pm

I'm looking to convert my head to head league into a keeper. I would appreciate any suggestions on how many keepers we should keep.

I was thinking in the neighborhood of 5?. Also, how is the best way to deal with this for the draft next year? I know several of you have your keeper cost you the draft pick one round higher than where you took the player in the previous year. Is this the best way? Any input will be appreciated. I think there has to be a better way of doing this, but I can't think of it right now.
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Re: Best rules for a keeper league

Postby Lofunzo » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:36 am

tms298 wrote:I'm looking to convert my head to head league into a keeper. I would appreciate any suggestions on how many keepers we should keep.

I was thinking in the neighborhood of 5?. Also, how is the best way to deal with this for the draft next year? I know several of you have your keeper cost you the draft pick one round higher than where you took the player in the previous year. Is this the best way? Any input will be appreciated. I think there has to be a better way of doing this, but I can't think of it right now.


How long has this league been in existence?? My main advice to you would be to take baby steps at first and not get too crazy from the start. I would start with something small like 3 keepers. That way, some of the lower teams don't feel hopeless. If you want to add values for rounds drafted, that is a nice twist. I also love subtracting a year after each season to help with parity. That way, getting someone like Wright and Berkman in the 8th and 9th rounds, as I did, doesn't allow me to win my league every year just based on 2 nice draft picks.

1 thing that can cause problems is with picking up guys from the WW like Lincecum, Gallardo, etc. What I like to do is assign him a value based on his O-Rank before the next season. Take the O-Rank and divide it by the number of teams and round up. Much more fair than having Lincecum as a 22nd rounder.
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Re: Best rules for a keeper league

Postby JimmyBaseball » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:54 am

We do it pretty simple. Keep minimum of 3 and maximum of 5 players each year. If someone keeps only 3 and the rest keep four, they get the real first pick in order to "catch up" to the others. When each team gets 5 players the draft should be "snaking" in the correct direction.

Last place the year before gets the first pick (at least in the 6th round b/c we don't know how many players each team will keep). First place gets the last pick.
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Re: Best rules for a keeper league

Postby Matthias » Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:18 pm

I agree with keeping the number of keepers low. Otherwise people will start the season feeling like they don't have much of a chance.

I'd also do an escalating draft-pick keeper price. It might be more daunting when people first look at it, but it will be worth it once they start figuring out how it works. Something like...
* To keep a player one year, a team must forfeit the draft pick one round earlier than the player was drafted.
* To keep a player a second year, a team must forfeit the draft pick two rounds earlier than the forfeited draft pick of the year before.
* To keep a player any longer, a team must forfeit the draft pick four rounds earlier than the forfeited draft pick of the year before.
* If two picks would be forfeited in the same round, a team must forfeit the pick before the round that clashes.
* No keeper may be kept in a year that is before a 1st round draft pick.

Example:
In 2006, a team drafts Hanley Ramirez in the 8th round.
In 2007, the team keeps Hanley and forfeits their 7th round draft pick.
In 2007, the team also drafts Brandon Webb in the 6th round.
In 2008, the team wants to keep both Hanley and Webb.
They have to forfeit a 5th-rounder for Hanley since this is the 2nd year they're keeping him.
They have to forfeit a 5th-rounder for Webb since this is the 1st year they're keeping him.
SInce they have to forfeit two 5th-rounders, they forfeit their 5th-rounder for Hanley and their 4th-rounder for Webb.
In 2009, they could keep Hanley by giving up their 1st-rounder and keep Webb by giving up their 2nd-rounder (if they wanted).
In 2010, they couldn't keep either.

You can obviously tweak things to your own liking, but I would strongly encourage the increasing penalty... it's no fun if someone gets someone like Pujols in the 8th round and then noone else ever has a chance at him because he just gets kept forever and ever. It's a tricky balance between rewarding players who are good predictors of future talent and keeping things interesting for everyone, but it can be struck.

FWIW, my main league is an auction, keeper league. The rules are you can keep any 3 players plus 1 additional player who you bought for $1 in the auction the year before. The keeper prices go up: $3 the first year, $5 the second, and $10 every year thereafter. It is far and away the most interesting fantasy league I do, in any sport. And from draft day in one year, to draft day the next, people obsess over who is going to be their keepers each year. And noone complains that they don't get to keep enough or that the escalators are too much. It just places a premium on getting good-value players instead of just good players.
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Re: Best rules for a keeper league

Postby tms298 » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:30 am

Thanks for the replies, I guess I just thought that only escalating one round per year was not steep enough. I was thinking more along the lines of three rounds. We are starting fresh this year and want to have the rules in place first, but as an example: I drafted Matt Holliday in something like the 11th round two years ago. It seems unfair for me to have him as a ninth round pick this year. If it escalated three rounds per year, then I would be giving up a fifth rounder-a little steep but definitely excellent value.

I would appreciate if some of you would verify that one round per year is the correct amount. I am leaning toward three or four keepers with a max of 3 years.

Thanks a lot guys.
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Re: Best rules for a keeper league

Postby Lofunzo » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:04 am

tms298 wrote:Thanks for the replies, I guess I just thought that only escalating one round per year was not steep enough. I was thinking more along the lines of three rounds. We are starting fresh this year and want to have the rules in place first, but as an example: I drafted Matt Holliday in something like the 11th round two years ago. It seems unfair for me to have him as a ninth round pick this year. If it escalated three rounds per year, then I would be giving up a fifth rounder-a little steep but definitely excellent value.

I would appreciate if some of you would verify that one round per year is the correct amount. I am leaning toward three or four keepers with a max of 3 years.

Thanks a lot guys.


I understand what you are thinking but you can't worry about a player here or a player there. 1 round per year seems to be fair. It allows guys like A-Rod and Pujols to go back into the player pool if you subtract 1 year. I do like assigning an O-Rank value to a player picked up off of the WW, though. Just divide O-Rank by managers and round up.
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Re: Best rules for a keeper league

Postby Matthias » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:33 pm

One round per year is too low. It might not be too big of a deal if you put a 3-year limit on it, but I'd still say go higher.

As far as waiver wire pickups, I'd just say that they're all the equivalent of an 8th or so rounder and be done with it. You could even say higher if you like. But there's no reason to be reward someone picking up the hot hand... what you want to reward is someone taking a chance on someone in the draft.
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Re: Best rules for a keeper league

Postby Matthias » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:41 pm

Lofunzo wrote:1 round per year seems to be fair. It allows guys like A-Rod and Pujols to go back into the player pool if you subtract 1 year.

They only go back in the player pool if they're not already kept. If Pujols was drafted in the 18th round as a rookie, he still wouldn't go back into the pool for another 10 years.

As I said earlier, the round escalator is less of an issue if you limit the years that a guy can be kept. But I prefer increasing escalators and allowing people to make their own decision if a player is still worth it, and reaping the benefits of looking ahead, than a hard rule of keep for X years for all players.
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Re: Best rules for a keeper league

Postby Lofunzo » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:50 pm

Matthias wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:1 round per year seems to be fair. It allows guys like A-Rod and Pujols to go back into the player pool if you subtract 1 year.

They only go back in the player pool if they're not already kept. If Pujols was drafted in the 18th round as a rookie, he still wouldn't go back into the pool for another 10 years.

As I said earlier, the round escalator is less of an issue if you limit the years that a guy can be kept. But I prefer increasing escalators and allowing people to make their own decision if a player is still worth it, and reaping the benefits of looking ahead, than a hard rule of keep for X years for all players.


That Pujols issue could cause a problem but how often would that really happen?? Isn't that contradictory to what you wrote in the post above??

what you want to reward is someone taking a chance on someone in the draft.


Wouldn't getting Pujols in the 18th round be considered taking a chance on someone in the draft??

I really have no problem with capping it at 3 seasons.
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Re: Best rules for a keeper league

Postby Matthias » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:59 pm

Lofunzo wrote:
Matthias wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:1 round per year seems to be fair. It allows guys like A-Rod and Pujols to go back into the player pool if you subtract 1 year.

They only go back in the player pool if they're not already kept. If Pujols was drafted in the 18th round as a rookie, he still wouldn't go back into the pool for another 10 years.

As I said earlier, the round escalator is less of an issue if you limit the years that a guy can be kept. But I prefer increasing escalators and allowing people to make their own decision if a player is still worth it, and reaping the benefits of looking ahead, than a hard rule of keep for X years for all players.


That Pujols issue could cause a problem but how often would that really happen?? Isn't that contradictory to what you wrote in the post above??

what you want to reward is someone taking a chance on someone in the draft.


Wouldn't getting Pujols in the 18th round be considered taking a chance on someone in the draft??

That was speaking to taking a chance on someone in the draft vs. just picking them up off of the WW once they catch fire (say, Ryan Braun last year or Hanley Ramirez two years ago). As far as draft and keeper generally, you should read what I wrote in my more exhaustive post.
It's a tricky balance between rewarding players who are good predictors of future talent and keeping things interesting for everyone, but it can be struck.

Any reward to looking ahead is necessarily going to come at the expense of making it more interesting for everyone else in the next year. But a well thought-out system will do both. Just increasing by 1 round per year isn't well thought-out... it's just reflex.
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