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Fixing Baseball without a salary cap

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Postby drunkenmonkey » Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:21 pm

The ABA was the NBA's competition. The NBA eventually absorbed some of its teams into their own league.

And while we're on the subject of the salary cap being un-american, how is it not un-american for Steinbrenner to threaten the league with huge law suits if they add another team to the New York area. Talk about suppressing competition. That I think is the real answer to the problem. Throw the Expos into New York and keep an eye on the next one or two most financially inept teams to see if they should follow.
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Postby drunkenmonkey » Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:22 pm

Nice to finally see your picture, Mookie. ;-D
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Postby LBJackal » Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:30 pm

Good idea about adding more teams to areas that can support them. The problem is the owners will never agree. Ever. Not gonna happen. Why would they say "yeah sure, put a few teams in my area because we have too many fans".? It would definately create more parity, but it will NOT happen. They're having a hard enough time getting a team in DC because of Seattle.

For that reason, their should be a hard salary cap put in place. It's not the capitalist way, but baseball shouldn't be about capitalism. Of course the owners will make as much as they can within the rules of the game, which is what George is doing and I don't blame him, but putting a hard cap and floor in place would create a lot of parity. Baseball would be more enjoyable, the owners would still be making money, and the players would have to deal with getting only $10-15M as opposed to $25M. Boo hoo. I son't see the risk involved fopr the players. They get guaranteed money. Owners don't neccesarily get paid, soemtimes they end up in the red. As long as the minimum salary is hunderds of thousands of dollars, I have no sympathy for the players. They play baseball for a living and get paid more than doctors and the President.

So I see 2 options that would work if put in place:

1) Salary cap - MLBPA won't agree because they wouldn't be making enough money

2) Put teams in cities that can support a lot of teams - owners won't agree, they'll lose too much revenue

I don't see a solution that will work, but a salary cap is most likely.
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Re: Fixing Baseball without a salary cap

Postby LBJackal » Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:32 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:Is this a free market capitalist system or some hybrid designed for the amusement of people that want professional baseball in Kansas City?


It should be a hybrid designed for the amusement of people that want professional baseball in Kansas City.
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Re: Fixing Baseball without a salary cap

Postby stabone76 » Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:45 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:Maybe this should be moved to the general section but I want to stop the bitching and get a debate going over how to fix baseball. This will be too long for most people to read but I hope that the regulars give me their opinions.

With the recent Arod for Soriano trade, it is anticipated that the Yankee's payroll will exceed $195M and that THEIR LUXURY TAX WILL BE GREATER THAN THE BREWERS' ENTIRE PAYROLL. Most seem to think that something should be done, but what:


1) Hard or Soft Salary Cap

I am not in favour of this option. Baseball is already enough of a monopoly as it is. I will not get into the reasoning behind anti-trust laws, but suffice it to say that it is not good to allow one group to corner a market and not let anyone else in to play.

At least hockey, football and basketball have had to fight off competing leagues - baseball never.

To assume that a salary cap will lead to lower ticke prices is naive. It will lead to more parity (good) but it will forever close the door to a competing league, it will allow the owners to artificially determine the value of the players and it will allow the owners to dictate the future of the game, a task for which they are singularly unqualified.


2) Open Market - Teired Major Leagues

This is my suggestion. Forget any concept of fiscal restraint. Get rid of the luxury tax and let the free market decide what a player is worth - this is what capitalism is built upon. If an owner wants to spend himself into bankruptcy or buy a championship, so be it.

In order to get rid of the unbalanced games that this will lead to, we institute a teired system. The top 12-15 teams will play each other, with the two bottom teams being relegated to a lower division at the end of the season.

In a lower division, the remaining 15 teams will play each other for their own championship, with the top two teams being promoted to play with the big boys the following season.

This is how it is done in European soccer, with great success. There is pride in just making it to the premier division and there is also pride in winning the lower division. We get a number of playoff races and we also avoid having the big boys beat the crap out of the poor boys during the regular season.

3) No Protected Markets

Going hand-in-hand with the teired system is the concept of unprotecting markets. In this system, there is no limit on the number of teams that you can have. If you can remain financially viable, field a team, pay your bills and draw fans, then you are invited to the party and the division that you play in is dictated by the number of games that you win.

This means that if NYC can support 6 teams then it gets 6. The TV revenue is spread around and, in theory, brings the Yankees back to the pack. This also allows New Yorkers to actually go to a professional baseball game (they must have the highest ratio of citizens to tickets in the league). Seriously, if Chicago can support two professional teams why can't there be two in NYC (wait a sec...).



I know that this is very far-fetched and will never be voluntarily accepted by the owners but if they cannot strong-arm the players union into accepting a salary cap then the whole system is bound to crash - what should be instituted after the crash?
This is tough for me. I am a realist and think that since this is also america it should be up to the owner who they sign and how much they spend. But I also think that when selling a team they should find an owner worthy of a team. sorta like when you find a new member for a fantasy league that keeps owners. you dont take the first person that comes along, you take someone that is competitive. I think when someone buys a team they should ask them how they will run it and have them committ to the strategy or sell. I know it sounds wierd and i am sorta contradicting myself from before, but im a brewer fan, and as much as i hate the sexson trade, i dont hate bud(or his daughter, but i STILL say bud runs the team) i think they can run it anyway they want, but... dont be back stabbing. Because of revenu sharing andthe new stadium they are among thetop in PROFIT, and then mortguage the team... now that pises me off.
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Postby stabone76 » Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:47 pm

drunkenmonkey wrote:The ABA was the NBA's competition. The NBA eventually absorbed some of its teams into their own league.

And while we're on the subject of the salary cap being un-american, how is it not un-american for Steinbrenner to threaten the league with huge law suits if they add another team to the New York area. Talk about suppressing competition. That I think is the real answer to the problem. Throw the Expos into New York and keep an eye on the next one or two most financially inept teams to see if they should follow.
wow, EXCELLENT idea...... very interesting
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Postby stabone76 » Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:51 pm

LBJackal wrote:Good idea about adding more teams to areas that can support them. The problem is the owners will never agree. Ever. Not gonna happen. Why would they say "yeah sure, put a few teams in my area because we have too many fans".? It would definately create more parity, but it will NOT happen. They're having a hard enough time getting a team in DC because of Seattle.

For that reason, their should be a hard salary cap put in place. It's not the capitalist way, but baseball shouldn't be about capitalism. Of course the owners will make as much as they can within the rules of the game, which is what George is doing and I don't blame him, but putting a hard cap and floor in place would create a lot of parity. Baseball would be more enjoyable, the owners would still be making money, and the players would have to deal with getting only $10-15M as opposed to $25M. Boo hoo. I son't see the risk involved fopr the players. They get guaranteed money. Owners don't neccesarily get paid, soemtimes they end up in the red. As long as the minimum salary is hunderds of thousands of dollars, I have no sympathy for the players. They play baseball for a living and get paid more than doctors and the President.

So I see 2 options that would work if put in place:

1) Salary cap - MLBPA won't agree because they wouldn't be making enough money

2) Put teams in cities that can support a lot of teams - owners won't agree, they'll lose too much revenue

I don't see a solution that will work, but a salary cap is most likely.
WOW our first disagreement. I think the owners DESERVE the money they make, they put up all hte possible loss. they are the only people that may lose money. also, how many people really make twentyto twenty five million.. i remember when Kirby Puckett was one of like five people who made over a milion dollars in like ninety two.
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Re: Fixing Baseball without a salary cap

Postby Casimir » Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:53 pm

Unfortunately, I think baseball is going to end up going to style like the NFL has. Is it good? Well, its arguably good for the NFL. There is some sort of balance between parity and dynasty in the NFL.

Although I believe in capitalism et al, I do feel that there is a point where a salary is too much for what one does. $25 million per season? Too much for an athlete. Too much for an owner, also.

Until the owners show the books, I can't say I blame the players for not accepting a cap. Carl Pohlad is one of the ten richest sports team owners on the globe (forgive me, as this is based upon memory of an article written in 2002 or 2003 and I cannot recall exaclty which magazine), yet he's very resistant to putting much money into his Twins in the form of player salary, and is looking for the state of Minnesota to "give" his team a new playpen. Now that's a load of crap.

I also can't say I blame George Steinbrenner, although he seems to be everyone's favorite culprit. George is doing what he needs to do (or what he feels he needs to do) to improve his team within the confines of the rules of MLB. Most people want to villify him, yet they feel badly for someone like Pohlad. Seems odd to me.

I don't know that the tiered system will be an option that MLB considers. I've just got a feeling that they will resist that temptation, unless they feel its a gimmick worthy of pumping more short term interest into the game until they come up with another gimmick to pump short term interest into the game, much like the knee-jerk reaction of awarding home-field advantage in the World Series to winning league of the All Star Game :-P .

Regardless of what happens in terms of some sort of competitive balance restructuring, I just hope it happens after Bud Selig is out of office and they someone with some sort of vision for the game in charge. I've seen names bantied about on other forums in here, and the two thast creep up the most are Bob Costas and the living $5 bill himself, Peter Gammons. I'd be fine with either over Selig. Some would argue about what these two would bring to the table in terms of baseball experience aside from reporting it. But maybe baseball would do best by appointing a "noninsider insider" to the role of commissioner?
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Postby LBJackal » Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:56 pm

stabone76 wrote:
LBJackal wrote:Good idea about adding more teams to areas that can support them. The problem is the owners will never agree. Ever. Not gonna happen. Why would they say "yeah sure, put a few teams in my area because we have too many fans".? It would definately create more parity, but it will NOT happen. They're having a hard enough time getting a team in DC because of Seattle.

For that reason, their should be a hard salary cap put in place. It's not the capitalist way, but baseball shouldn't be about capitalism. Of course the owners will make as much as they can within the rules of the game, which is what George is doing and I don't blame him, but putting a hard cap and floor in place would create a lot of parity. Baseball would be more enjoyable, the owners would still be making money, and the players would have to deal with getting only $10-15M as opposed to $25M. Boo hoo. I son't see the risk involved fopr the players. They get guaranteed money. Owners don't neccesarily get paid, soemtimes they end up in the red. As long as the minimum salary is hunderds of thousands of dollars, I have no sympathy for the players. They play baseball for a living and get paid more than doctors and the President.

So I see 2 options that would work if put in place:

1) Salary cap - MLBPA won't agree because they wouldn't be making enough money

2) Put teams in cities that can support a lot of teams - owners won't agree, they'll lose too much revenue

I don't see a solution that will work, but a salary cap is most likely.
WOW our first disagreement. I think the owners DESERVE the money they make, they put up all hte possible loss. they are the only people that may lose money.


Did you not read this:

I don't see the risk involved for the players. They get guaranteed money. Owners don't neccesarily get paid, soemtimes they end up in the red. As long as the minimum salary is hunderds of thousands of dollars, I have no sympathy for the players.
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Re: Fixing Baseball without a salary cap

Postby stabone76 » Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:03 pm

Casimir wrote:Although I believe in capitalism et al, I do feel that there is a point where a salary is too much for what one does. $25 million per season.
I totally disagree. Look, that money has to go somewhere. what should it matter if it goes to AROD, Peter Angelose or George Steinbrenner. If the owner fields a team that wins without spending the money he should get it. If aplayer is good enough to lead his team to victory, he should get it. As long as someone pays it, it goes somewhere, and it should,
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