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I just threw up in my mouth a little

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Re: I just threw up in my mouth a little

Postby knapplc » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:36 pm

thedude wrote:Unless the paramedics agree, i am not inclined to believe the father when he says the his child received a clean bill of health.

No way in hell does some twit paramedic have more rights regarding my child than I. No paramedic should ever, ever have more say in a child's treatment than that child's parents.

I would sue everyone in ten counties if I were this dad. This was an incredible, outrageous abuse of constitutional rights.
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Re: I just threw up in my mouth a little

Postby RugbyD » Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:01 pm

Madison wrote:*Hypothetically* - IF the child did have a massive hematoma and the father refused medical treatment for the kid, and the kid ended up dead, everyone would be screaming about the authorities allowing it to happen.

Let them scream all they want, that's why we have criminal prosecutions for. A govt fixating on taking step to prevent everything will succeed in preventing nothing at the expense of everyone's rights.
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Re: I just threw up in my mouth a little

Postby StlSluggers » Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:10 pm

RugbyD wrote:
Madison wrote:*Hypothetically* - IF the child did have a massive hematoma and the father refused medical treatment for the kid, and the kid ended up dead, everyone would be screaming about the authorities allowing it to happen.

Let them scream all they want, that's why we have criminal prosecutions for. A govt fixating on taking step to prevent everything will succeed in preventing nothing at the expense of everyone's rights.

I agree, but I'll save someone else the time in posting:

"But that child can't defend himself. Someone must fight for him!"

I say parenting test. ;-7 :-D
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Re: I just threw up in my mouth a little

Postby Madison » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:59 pm

knapplc wrote:This kid could get tetanus from scraping his arm with a rusty nail, and that could kill him just the same as a temporal hematoma, but I'm sure nobody here would advocate forcefully taking a child from their home to get a bruise treated, would they?

A kid could die from the flu, but every kid that gets the flu doesn't go see the doctor, nor should they be forced to. But if we follow the logic used by the people in this article, if I don't take my daughter to the doctor, I forfeit my rights and the police can knock down my door? I don't think so.


The difference here being that the paramedics knew this kid had an injury (if they knew - two different stories in the article, so a bit hard to argue it).

However, parents refusing to provide medical care to their children lose their children all the time. Kid dies from the flu and never saw a doctor, you betcha those parents would be brought up on charges and any other kids they have would be turned over to the state.

RugbyD wrote:Let them scream all they want, that's why we have criminal prosecutions for. A govt fixating on taking step to prevent everything will succeed in preventing nothing at the expense of everyone's rights.


Yeah, that's all the government needs. Yet another black eye, and due a parent who refused medical treatment. If that kid had died from a hematoma that the government knew about and ignored, maybe 5% of the population would actually look at the situation and blame the father like they should. The other 95% would blame the government. Sometimes the whipping boy is going to protect himself. Not to mention the lawsuit the father *might* have filed. I don't know enough about him, but I could see the case being brought to court, and very possibly going in his favor, even though he refused medical treatment. Would be one of those "well I didn't know, they should have protected my son!" kinda things. :-t So yeah, the government is going to cover it's own butt sometimes, or not let itself be the butt of more punishment. Just like any normal person or other organization would do.
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Re: I just threw up in my mouth a little

Postby thedude » Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:27 pm

knapplc wrote:
thedude wrote:Unless the paramedics agree, i am not inclined to believe the father when he says the his child received a clean bill of health.

No way in hell does some twit paramedic have more rights regarding my child than I. No paramedic should ever, ever have more say in a child's treatment than that child's parents.

I would sue everyone in ten counties if I were this dad. This was an incredible, outrageous abuse of constitutional rights.


Is parental neglect is a crime.

parental neglect n. a crime consisting of acts or omissions of a parent (including a step-parent, adoptive parent, or someone who, in practical terms, serves in a parent's role) which endangers the health and life of a child or fails to take steps necessary to the proper raising of a child. The neglect can include leaving a child alone when he or she needs protection, failure to provide food, clothing, medical attention or education to a child, or placing the child in dangerous or harmful circumstances, including exposing the child to a violent, abusive or sexually predatory person.


http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictiona ... al+neglect

When you are hearing one side of the story, you do not know how serious the kid's injuries were, or what other things the paramedics might have seen.
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Re: I just threw up in my mouth a little

Postby knapplc » Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:33 pm

Do you have kids, dude?
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Re: I just threw up in my mouth a little

Postby knapplc » Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:42 pm

Madison wrote:
knapplc wrote:This kid could get tetanus from scraping his arm with a rusty nail, and that could kill him just the same as a temporal hematoma, but I'm sure nobody here would advocate forcefully taking a child from their home to get a bruise treated, would they?

A kid could die from the flu, but every kid that gets the flu doesn't go see the doctor, nor should they be forced to. But if we follow the logic used by the people in this article, if I don't take my daughter to the doctor, I forfeit my rights and the police can knock down my door? I don't think so.


The difference here being that the paramedics knew this kid had an injury (if they knew - two different stories in the article, so a bit hard to argue it).

However, parents refusing to provide medical care to their children lose their children all the time. Kid dies from the flu and never saw a doctor, you betcha those parents would be brought up on charges and any other kids they have would be turned over to the state.

OK, let me put it to you this way. I have some friends at church whose little boy died last week because he pulled his trach out of his throat in the middle of the night. All kinds of arguments could be made, like they should have had a monitor on the baby, they should have had in-home nursing care, they should have checked on him every so often, they should have done something else.

Are you saying the state should come in and take away their daughter now? :-?

Because remember, we're not talking about parents refusing to provide medical care in this situation. We're talking about parents choosing to treat their child in a manner they think is best. There's a huge difference.

My friends felt their baby was doing very well, and they for sure needed the sleep. It was a horrible, unfortunate, terrible accident that his trach popped out, but it's not criminal and because this accident happened the state in NO WAY should remove their daughter from them.
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Re: I just threw up in my mouth a little

Postby Madison » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:08 pm

knapplc wrote:OK, let me put it to you this way. I have some friends at church whose little boy died last week because he pulled his trach out of his throat in the middle of the night. All kinds of arguments could be made, like they should have had a monitor on the baby, they should have had in-home nursing care, they should have checked on him every so often, they should have done something else.

Are you saying the state should come in and take away their daughter now? :-?

Because remember, we're not talking about parents refusing to provide medical care in this situation. We're talking about parents choosing to treat their child in a manner they think is best. There's a huge difference.

My friends felt their baby was doing very well, and they for sure needed the sleep. It was a horrible, unfortunate, terrible accident that his trach popped out, but it's not criminal and because this accident happened the state in NO WAY should remove their daughter from them.


Sorry to hear about your friends' child. :,-( Sounds like a painful passing. He just reached down his throat and pulled out his trachea? Can't say I've ever heard of that one before, but doesn't sound quiet and peaceful at all. Really sorry to hear it. :,-(

Totally different scenario from what we're talking about though. Unless the kid had known health issues that your friends ignored, but I'm sure that's not the case.

You realize you're making an argument that "prayer" instead of medicine is acceptable and the state should butt out, because some feel that prayer is a treatment? States intervene all the time on that, and even file charges against the parents and take away any other kids they may have. This is no different. The father wanted to "treat" ;-7 the child himself simply because he did not want the medical bill. That is a refusal to provide reasonable care to a child, and very easily constitutes neglect if the medical staff that did see the child felt it needed to be done (granted, depends on what the exact injuries were and the articles are unclear on that matter).

The only reason this is a story is because the father refused in such a way that it took SWAT to get this kid examined by a doctor. I find the whole thing a bit silly at this point. Let the docs examine the kid for crying out loud. It's his kid, I'd think he'd care more about the kid than the money... enough to swallow the bill and make sure his kid is deemed ok by a doctor. Ah well. :-°
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Re: I just threw up in my mouth a little

Postby knapplc » Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:09 am

Madison wrote:
knapplc wrote:OK, let me put it to you this way. I have some friends at church whose little boy died last week because he pulled his trach out of his throat in the middle of the night. All kinds of arguments could be made, like they should have had a monitor on the baby, they should have had in-home nursing care, they should have checked on him every so often, they should have done something else.

Are you saying the state should come in and take away their daughter now? :-?

Because remember, we're not talking about parents refusing to provide medical care in this situation. We're talking about parents choosing to treat their child in a manner they think is best. There's a huge difference.

My friends felt their baby was doing very well, and they for sure needed the sleep. It was a horrible, unfortunate, terrible accident that his trach popped out, but it's not criminal and because this accident happened the state in NO WAY should remove their daughter from them.


Sorry to hear about your friends' child. :,-( Sounds like a painful passing. He just reached down his throat and pulled out his trachea? Can't say I've ever heard of that one before, but doesn't sound quiet and peaceful at all. Really sorry to hear it. :,-(
You've never heard of a trachea tube, commonly referred to as a trach? :-?

Madison wrote:Totally different scenario from what we're talking about though. Unless the kid had known health issues that your friends ignored, but I'm sure that's not the case.
Nope, same scenario. The boy in this article - who is fine, by the way, let's not forget that - had a known medical issue which we call "a bruise" but which they called a hematoma. Same diff. My friends' little boy was a cancer kid, and he was full of tubes and wires (otherwise known as a real medical issue).

Madison wrote:You realize you're making an argument that "prayer" instead of medicine is acceptable and the state should butt out, because some feel that prayer is a treatment? States intervene all the time on that, and even file charges against the parents and take away any other kids they may have. This is no different. The father wanted to "treat" ;-7 the child himself simply because he did not want the medical bill. That is a refusal to provide reasonable care to a child, and very easily constitutes neglect if the medical staff that did see the child felt it needed to be done (granted, depends on what the exact injuries were and the articles are unclear on that matter).
Reasonable care? For what? The paramedics themselves had already checked the kid out and "found no significant impairment." We're not talking about a life-threatening situation here, we're talking about a bump on the head.

Don't be fooled by groovy words like "huge hematoma." A few years ago a friend and his four-year-old daughter came over, and she wiped out on my driveway on her bike. She got a nice goose egg bruise on her forehead, which is "huge hematoma." Not only did he not take her to the doctor, he didn't so much as give her an ice pack. He carried her home and put her to bed. She was absolutely fine, and continues to be fine. According to the government in this case (and apparently you, from what I'm gathering from what you're saying), I now have two friends who should lose their children.

Madison wrote:The only reason this is a story is because the father refused in such a way that it took SWAT to get this kid examined by a doctor. I find the whole thing a bit silly at this point. Let the docs examine the kid for crying out loud. It's his kid, I'd think he'd care more about the kid than the money... enough to swallow the bill and make sure his kid is deemed ok by a doctor. Ah well. :-°
Disagree. This is a story because the Paramedics, the magistrate and the SWAT team took it upon themselves to take away this father's right to care for his own child. This is a situation where the government has decided that a parent is giving improper medical care for a child who has a boo-boo. Surely you're not advocating that the next time my daughter has a scrape, a bruise, a bump or a bash, that I clear whatever treatment method I feel is best with my local government?
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Re: I just threw up in my mouth a little

Postby AussieDodger » Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:16 am

Have fun living in your dictatorship.
There was probably oil in that mans house , that's why they needed SWAT muscle. Huge hematoma = WMDs. ;-D
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