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Re: White Sox

Postby AussieDodger » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:03 am

05worldserieschamps wrote:
1. Owens was 26. He stole 32 bases in 93 games last year. He could have easily been 40-50 SB this season.


So? That's a tiny drop into the ocean against his .636 OPS :-t

05worldserieschamps wrote:
3. Swisher is a power bat. Not to say he wont help a lot, but the middle of our order is already clogged up with Konerko, Dye, Thome, Crede, Pierzynski and now Quentin. These guys, much like Swisher all bring mostly one element to the game-- power. We have that already in our lineup. What we dont have is speed. Now, our best base stealer is 34 year old Orlando Cabrera, who cant move like he used to.


Dusty is that you? I thought you managed the Reds now? We can't have people clogging the bases can we?

05worldserieschamps wrote:4. Owens can help bring more of the "small ball" approach. Which won a World Series in 2005.


Swisher could bunt his career away too if you asked him to.

05worldserieschamps wrote:5. Nick Swisher--just what we need. Another .265 hitter and below.


Yes he is what you need. Would you rather have Darin Erstad or Delmon Young? Erstad used to be a punter in college you know. And Delmon has a rocket of an arm. }:-) }:-) }:-) }:-)
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Re: White Sox

Postby 05worldserieschamps » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:07 pm

Guys, the Swisher trade is an insane addition. its helps A LOT. Im a white sox fan and I acknowledge that. But so does the Cabrera and uribe addition. Jerry Owens was going to be a decent player. He isnt good by any means, but Uribe, as it has already been pointed out, is terribe. The additions are similar, is my argument. Not that Jerry Owens would be a better player than Swisher.

Also, as the argument has already been made, when they had good pitching, Podsednik and Iguchi with decent power hitting in the middle, they won a World Series. And regardless of what you say, you need offense to win a championship. Now, after getting Thome and shifting to the all out power approach, we decline all the way down to 72 wins. Playing that style, we were successful and won games. Orlando Cabrera is that style of play. Jerry Owens is that style of play. Im saying if we put together that same package and got a Blanton or Haren or something instead of Swisher, that would be a bigger step to small ball again. Small ball is sacraficing all star power hitters for really good pitching, then you fill your lineup with guys who play defense, are fast, play the game right, get down bunts, etc. Spend the money/prospects on big time pitching, then win games the small ball way.
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Re: White Sox

Postby Tavish » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:18 pm

Now, after getting Thome and shifting to the all out power approach, we decline all the way down to 72 wins.


If that was the style they were trying to play last year they were completely awful at it. There were the 2nd worst slugging team in the AL and had the lowest OBP. It doesn't matter what style of baseball you play, if you do it that badly you will not win games.
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Re: White Sox

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:42 pm

OneLoveBoomer wrote:Yikes, all this arguing is getting a bit foolish. 1. Orlando Cabrera is an asset to the team and an improvement. Uribe was and is G-o-d A-w-f-u-l. OCab adds speed and average -- he's a great #2 hitter that the Sox needed. 2. The White Sox were at their best in 2005 because of one Scott Podsednik. Is speed overrated? Sure. Does it win games when your lead off hitter gets on base, steals second, and then is home on Iguchi's single? Absolutely. The Sox won and lost by Podsednik.

Maybe speed's overrated, but it's absurd to belittle it so. :-?


But, even if you buy the support for speed, YOU HAVE NOT ADDED SPEED. You've added Cabrera, but you've removed Owens from the starting lineup. If Quentin, Swisher, and Cabrera replace Uribe, Owens, and Podsednik, there is NO doubt that what you have done is reduce the emphasis on speed in your lineup.
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Re: White Sox

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:49 pm

05worldserieschamps wrote:Guys, the Swisher trade is an insane addition. its helps A LOT. Im a white sox fan and I acknowledge that. But so does the Cabrera and uribe addition. Jerry Owens was going to be a decent player. He isnt good by any means, but Uribe, as it has already been pointed out, is terribe. The additions are similar, is my argument. Not that Jerry Owens would be a better player than Swisher.

Also, as the argument has already been made, when they had good pitching, Podsednik and Iguchi with decent power hitting in the middle, they won a World Series. And regardless of what you say, you need offense to win a championship. Now, after getting Thome and shifting to the all out power approach, we decline all the way down to 72 wins. Playing that style, we were successful and won games. Orlando Cabrera is that style of play. Jerry Owens is that style of play. Im saying if we put together that same package and got a Blanton or Haren or something instead of Swisher, that would be a bigger step to small ball again. Small ball is sacraficing all star power hitters for really good pitching, then you fill your lineup with guys who play defense, are fast, play the game right, get down bunts, etc. Spend the money/prospects on big time pitching, then win games the small ball way.


Jerry Owens will never be a decent player. The two most important parts of offense are getting on base and hitting for power. He does neither. And he's, at best, a slightly above average fielder. He's the very definition of, at best, 5th OFer.

THE SOX DID NOT SHIFT FROM A "SMALL BALL STYLE OF PLAY" TO A "POWER STYLE OF PLAY". THAT NEVER HAPPENED.

The 2005 Sox hit MORE HRs than the 2007 Sox AND had a HIGHER slugging percentage. The problem with the 2007 Sox was not style of play. It was a total lack of ANY offense. They didn't play power ball. They didn't play small ball. They played make an out ball, because thet had the LOWEST OBP in the league and the third lowest slugging percentage.


You really need to look at the facts about your own team before you write.
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Re: White Sox

Postby Pogotheostrich » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:57 pm

Let's look at a little history.

2005 R = 693
2006 R = 868
2007 R = 741

2005 ERA = 3.75
2006 ERA = 4.47
2007 ERA = 4.65

2005 W = 99
2006 W = 90
2007 w = 72

2005's success was due to the pitching . 2006 has the addition of Thome and career years from Dye, Konerko and Crede distracting from the fact the ERA jumped. 2007 the pitching gets a little worse and the offense returns to normal.
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Re: White Sox

Postby Ender » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:01 pm

05worldserieschamps wrote:Guys, the Swisher trade is an insane addition. its helps A LOT. Im a white sox fan and I acknowledge that. But so does the Cabrera and uribe addition. Jerry Owens was going to be a decent player. He isnt good by any means, but Uribe, as it has already been pointed out, is terribe. The additions are similar, is my argument. Not that Jerry Owens would be a better player than Swisher.

Also, as the argument has already been made, when they had good pitching, Podsednik and Iguchi with decent power hitting in the middle, they won a World Series. And regardless of what you say, you need offense to win a championship. Now, after getting Thome and shifting to the all out power approach, we decline all the way down to 72 wins. Playing that style, we were successful and won games. Orlando Cabrera is that style of play. Jerry Owens is that style of play. Im saying if we put together that same package and got a Blanton or Haren or something instead of Swisher, that would be a bigger step to small ball again. Small ball is sacraficing all star power hitters for really good pitching, then you fill your lineup with guys who play defense, are fast, play the game right, get down bunts, etc. Spend the money/prospects on big time pitching, then win games the small ball way.


The problem is you are completely wrong about why they won in 2005 and why they are losing now.

2007 - 5.18 RA/G, 4.28 RS/G, .318 OBP, .404 SLG, 72 W
2006 - 4.90 RA/G, 5.36 RS/G, .342 OBP, .464 SLG, 90 W
2005 - 3.98 RA/G, 4.57 RS/G, .322 OBP, .425 SLG, 99 W
2004 - 5.13 RA/G, 5.34 RS/G, .333 OBP, .457 SLG, 83 W

Looking at those numbers the pitching alone is worth roughly 19 W's over 2007, so if you give last years White Sox the 2005 rotation you would have expected close to 91 wins from a horrible offensive team. If you give the 2006 White Sox 3.98 RA/G you'd expect an increase of roughly 14 W's or a 104 W team. The 2005 White Sox won with PITCHING, not small ball. Pods wasn't a run scoring machine considering his OBP was actually good that year and he only scored 80 runs. This idea that small ball led to a world series has absolutely no basis in fact.

They won with pitching
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Re: White Sox

Postby kab21 » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:39 pm

OneLoveBoomer wrote:
kab21 wrote:
If you can't get on base, speed is wasted. I'll take the slow guy that's on-base instead of the fast guy that's in the dugout.


You'd take a slow guy that's on base instead of a fast guy that's in the dugout? Me too.




8-o


That's the whole point of my argument. Owens doesn't get on base (.327 last year), Swisher does get on base (about .375 last 2 years). As a bonus Swisher provides significantly more power.
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Re: White Sox

Postby 05worldserieschamps » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:08 pm

Wow, focus of this original argument has gone away fast.

My point: Swisher replacing Owens is a signifigant change(for the best) to our lineup. However, so is Cabrera replacing Uribe. I think both are great deals that influence our team ABOUT the same. The Nick Swisher trade, going off stats only, is obviously much better than the Cabrera trade. But theres more than just stats. And Like I said before, we already have 4-5 Nick Swishers, but we dont have a solid player like Orlando Cabrera, which ups his value to our team beyond stats.

Going in a different direction, how much do these trades effect our team??? Here are the following trades in case you forgot some:

GOT/TRADED
Nick Swisher/Gio Gonzalez, Fausto De la Santos, Ryan Sweeney
Carlos Quentin/Chris Carter
Orlando Cabrera/Jon Garland
Scott Linebrink/Free Agency

I think the Linebrink signing is up there on importance. The Sox had terrible relief pitching last year and signing one of the best setup men in the game should help A LOT. Also, last year Kenny Williams had a lot of young, power arms in the 'pen. So hopefully, some of these guys will mature a little bit, Mike Macdougall will find his old self, I think this has the potential to be a very good bullpen. Jenks is a premiere closer, Linebrink is a premiere set-up man and I think Macdougall, in his good years, is a premiere set-up man as well.

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Re: White Sox

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:20 pm

Having watched the Orioles waste a LOT of money on relief pitching, I would just say two things.

1. When you are 20 games from contending for the playoffs, all the relief pitching in the world ain't the problem.

2. Predicting which relievers will perform well from year to year is a fool's game. Linebrink may be great. And he may be a huge waste product.

OK, three things. The Swisher move is an elephant of a move. Since Quentin, I presume, replaces the awful LF combo, it's a doberman. The Cabrera move is an ant...ok, maybe a small rat. The Linebrink move is a microscopic speck of dust on that rat's hindquarters.

On the other hand, you've hurt your starting pitching and and your future. Unless you make another two or three big moves to improve your team without losing anything off the current team, you are still not in the hunt. And given that KW has started mortgaging the future, it's best to go all the way, rather than fail now AND later.
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