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RIAA: Putting a Legal CD On Your Comp Is Stealing

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Re: RIAA: Putting a Legal CD On Your Comp Is Stealing

Postby Tavish » Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:15 pm

AcidRock23 wrote:If the music industry is so concerned about the security of their product, they should stop selling digital files and go back to LP records or 8 track tapes that can't be copied.

Or if people were so concerned about getting free music why don't they go to artists/labels that provide it for free? The music industries' business model definitely has to change to better give the customers what they want. But to point try and put the blame on the labels for other people's blatant disregard of copyright ownership makes zero sense.

Madison wrote:Records are being preserved all the time. I know a few collectors that have something like these, and they can be bought in all kinds of stores, so they are legal:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=blended&field-keywords=usb%20turntable&results-process=default&dispatch=search/ref=pd_sl_ya_hhh-1_blended_40813542_1&results-process=default

No clue if there's something similar for 8-tracks.

Now here's the billion dollar question.... If the RIAA wants to say it's illegal to burn a copy of music someone purchases to their own machine, for their own use, then why aren't products like the ones in the link above made illegal? :-? What obvious thing am I missing?


Items like that in and of themselves have nothing to do with breaking copyright ownership. They have perfectly legitimate uses, it is just the acts of the owners that is illegal. Making those devices illegal would be like MADD arguing to make cars illegal to prevent drunk driving or maybe a better analogy would be making Xerox copiers illegal to prevent people from making copies of their books.
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Re: RIAA: Putting a Legal CD On Your Comp Is Stealing

Postby AcidRock23 » Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:31 pm

Is their point that if you want to 'preserve' your records, you should just pull the trigger and buy two or three copies to last your lifetime?

My main beef w/ my iPod is that when it blows up (which it does on a pretty regular basis...) I am podless for a week or so and it is a drag to have to lug CDs around again. It is much easier to burn a cd (ripped from CDs I bought...) to MP3 and pile 200 of them onto a disc so I can have more variety while driving around, working out, etc. Granted, I don't have that many 200 song playlists (most are 1500, or like a bunch of Mahler symphonies or stuff like that, that simply won't fit onto a CD...) and it is at best a temporary solution but if the music industry (including Apple) feels the obligation to sell products that suck that you get addicted to, I think that they need to cut people some slack about copying files. Apparently, there's not all that much money involved as Apple only charges another buck for a 'copy it all you want to file' at iTunes anyway?
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Re: RIAA: Putting a Legal CD On Your Comp Is Stealing

Postby Madison » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:44 pm

Tavish wrote:
Madison wrote:Records are being preserved all the time. I know a few collectors that have something like these, and they can be bought in all kinds of stores, so they are legal:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=blended&field-keywords=usb%20turntable&results-process=default&dispatch=search/ref=pd_sl_ya_hhh-1_blended_40813542_1&results-process=default

No clue if there's something similar for 8-tracks.

Now here's the billion dollar question.... If the RIAA wants to say it's illegal to burn a copy of music someone purchases to their own machine, for their own use, then why aren't products like the ones in the link above made illegal? :-? What obvious thing am I missing?


Items like that in and of themselves have nothing to do with breaking copyright ownership. They have perfectly legitimate uses, it is just the acts of the owners that is illegal. Making those devices illegal would be like MADD arguing to make cars illegal to prevent drunk driving or maybe a better analogy would be making Xerox copiers illegal to prevent people from making copies of their books.


Actually, it would be like making a copier specifically for books. What I linked to was devices strictly to copy vinyl albums to one's computer. That's what it was made for and that's all it does (or at least that's my understanding on most of them). So a more accurate analogy would be allowing a book copier to be sold, but then saying copying books is illegal. I don't quite understand that. I mean if it was like your example of a Xerox copier being used to copy books (when that's not what it was built for), then I understand and agree. But these devices are made specifically to do something the RIAA is trying to say is illegal.
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Re: RIAA: Putting a Legal CD On Your Comp Is Stealing

Postby Tavish » Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:14 pm

Madison wrote:
Tavish wrote:
Madison wrote:Records are being preserved all the time. I know a few collectors that have something like these, and they can be bought in all kinds of stores, so they are legal:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=blended&field-keywords=usb%20turntable&results-process=default&dispatch=search/ref=pd_sl_ya_hhh-1_blended_40813542_1&results-process=default

No clue if there's something similar for 8-tracks.

Now here's the billion dollar question.... If the RIAA wants to say it's illegal to burn a copy of music someone purchases to their own machine, for their own use, then why aren't products like the ones in the link above made illegal? :-? What obvious thing am I missing?


Items like that in and of themselves have nothing to do with breaking copyright ownership. They have perfectly legitimate uses, it is just the acts of the owners that is illegal. Making those devices illegal would be like MADD arguing to make cars illegal to prevent drunk driving or maybe a better analogy would be making Xerox copiers illegal to prevent people from making copies of their books.


Actually, it would be like making a copier specifically for books. What I linked to was devices strictly to copy vinyl albums to one's computer. That's what it was made for and that's all it does (or at least that's my understanding on most of them). So a more accurate analogy would be allowing a book copier to be sold, but then saying copying books is illegal. I don't quite understand that. I mean if it was like your example of a Xerox copier being used to copy books (when that's not what it was built for), then I understand and agree. But these devices are made specifically to do something the RIAA is trying to say is illegal.


Not really. A Xerox machine is made to copy whatever the person puts in it. It can copy things you've created, things you have the legal right to copy, things that have no copyright protection (public domain), and even things that you have no legal right to copy. There are perfectly legal ways to use the tool and many illegal ways.

The item you linked to works in just the same way, only in a more narrow medium. The machine can copy albums that are in the public domain, albums you have created (yes it is possible to create your own vinyl record), albums that you have the legal right to copy, and of course the ones that you do not have the legal right to copy.

The thing to remember is that the RIAA does not represent all artists. They represent many of the major labels, but there is plenty of music out there that is released by artists and labels that you are free to copy/distribute/do basically whatever you want with it. There are quite a few songs that have passed the protected time that copyright laws grant and have passed into the public domain. To make the type of equipment you linked to illegal would also restrict the completely legal uses of the equipment.
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Re: RIAA: Putting a Legal CD On Your Comp Is Stealing

Postby Madison » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:16 am

Tavish wrote:The item you linked to works in just the same way, only in a more narrow medium. The machine can copy albums that are in the public domain, albums you have created (yes it is possible to create your own vinyl record), albums that you have the legal right to copy


Ok, I'm convinced now. :-) I knew there had to be some obvious thing I was missing and that pretty well nails it. I never thought of public domain deep enough, but I obviously should have given it more thought. Thanks Tav! ;-D
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Re: RIAA: Putting a Legal CD On Your Comp Is Stealing

Postby StlSluggers » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:28 pm

Now you guys need to debate these guys.

:-D
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Re: RIAA: Putting a Legal CD On Your Comp Is Stealing

Postby Madison » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:34 pm

StlSluggers wrote:Now you guys need to debate these guys.

:-D


Oh wow. Why am I not surprised though? Next there will probably be a device to turn off the cameras that take pictures and send speeding tickets along with taking pictures and sending running red light tickets. :-b
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Re: RIAA: Putting a Legal CD On Your Comp Is Stealing

Postby StlSluggers » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:47 pm

Madison wrote:
StlSluggers wrote:Now you guys need to debate these guys.

:-D


Oh wow. Why am I not surprised though? Next there will probably be a device to turn off the cameras that take pictures and send speeding tickets along with taking pictures and sending running red light tickets. :-b

Those are motion sensitive, so if someone ever figures out how to block that, they'll have more than lights to think about bypassing. Most of the "innovations" that have tried to get around those cameras have centered on making your plate invisible to the camera. As far as I know, no one's created a fool proof system yet.
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Re: RIAA: Putting a Legal CD On Your Comp Is Stealing

Postby Madison » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:50 pm

StlSluggers wrote:
Madison wrote:
StlSluggers wrote:Now you guys need to debate these guys.

:-D


Oh wow. Why am I not surprised though? Next there will probably be a device to turn off the cameras that take pictures and send speeding tickets along with taking pictures and sending running red light tickets. :-b

Those are motion sensitive, so if someone ever figures out how to block that, they'll have more than lights to think about bypassing. Most of the "innovations" that have tried to get around those cameras have centered on making your plate invisible to the camera. As far as I know, no one's created a fool proof system yet.


I saw that Mythbusters episode too (masking the plates somehow). :-D

Those cameras have become quite popular around here. They seem to be installing them everywhere in the Fort Worth/Arlington area.

My biggest concern about them is simply the ticketing procedure. Ticket goes to the registered owner. Ok, but what if you don't own the car any longer? Perfect example is I traded in a car at a large dealership, and bought a new car. About 8 years later (yeah, 8 years!!!) I got a call from a junkyard owner telling me my car was there. I literally jumped off the couch and looked outside, but my car was right where it was supposed to be. Freaking out thinking something must have happened to my wife, I asked him which car. When he told me which one it was, I told him I had traded that car in to a dealership almost 10 years ago. He said that he had it if I wanted to come pick it up and that it was $50 due to the towing fee. I never went to get it, but that was really odd and by that time (8 years!) I can't imagine that I'd have to still have the paperwork on the trade. Had a camera ticketed that car, I'd have gotten the ticket, all because the dealership didn't bother to change the ownership over (guess they never sold it or something). And after 8 years of not having it, I'd be stuck with the ticket if I couldn't prove I had traded in that car (Really? Gotta keep the paperwork that long?). Dunno, but that's a concern I have about the camera tickets. :-o
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Re: RIAA: Putting a Legal CD On Your Comp Is Stealing

Postby StlSluggers » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:01 pm

Madison wrote:My biggest concern about them is simply the ticketing procedure. Ticket goes to the registered owner. Ok, but what if you don't own the car any longer? Perfect example is I traded in a car at a large dealership, and bought a new car. About 8 years later (yeah, 8 years!!!) I got a call from a junkyard owner telling me my car was there. I literally jumped off the couch and looked outside, but my car was right where it was supposed to be. Freaking out thinking something must have happened to my wife, I asked him which car. When he told me which one it was, I told him I had traded that car in to a dealership almost 10 years ago. He said that he had it if I wanted to come pick it up and that it was $50 due to the towing fee. I never went to get it, but that was really odd and by that time (8 years!) I can't imagine that I'd have to still have the paperwork on the trade. Had a camera ticketed that car, I'd have gotten the ticket, all because the dealership didn't bother to change the ownership over (guess they never sold it or something). And after 8 years of not having it, I'd be stuck with the ticket if I couldn't prove I had traded in that car (Really? Gotta keep the paperwork that long?). Dunno, but that's a concern I have about the camera tickets. :-o

Yeah, I'm not a fan of them, either. My mother once got a ticket in the mail from one of those cameras. It showed a picture of a van with Jersey plates driving in a tunnel. My mother owned an Alero and lived in the middle-of-nowhere Illinois at the time. Fairly certain there aren't tunnels around there...

On a related note, the neighboring town to where I live lost their mayor to prison last year when he tried to blackmail the company putting in these camera lights. He told them he'd rescind the city's order if they didn't give him something like $3,600. Seriously. He sold his ethics for a measly $3,600. They called the FBI, and he was arrested after the cash exchange. Moron.
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