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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby mweir145 » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:39 pm

Lofunzo wrote:
mweir145 wrote:
RyanK wrote:Wouldn't you have to potentially treat steroids in the same regard as what happened with Rose?
I guess thats basically the question ive been thinking, and feel that Rose should either be let in or Bud has some dirty work to do...

One thing is frowned upon by baseball people, and is the worst thing you can do in baseball (betting on baseball). One has been a part of baseball culture for many decades (PED use). So no, you wouldn't treat Rose the same as the steroid users, especially considering he actually agreed to his own ban.


Not nearly as many incidents that we know of but gambling in and on baseball has been going on for many decades as well.

Right... but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. If you do it, you better make sure you don't get caught. The penalty is far more severe for betting, considering that is something that is actually frowned upon by the baseball community.
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby HOOTIE » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:58 pm

dclark0699 wrote:I say he gets in.

I don't see how betting ON YOUR OWN TEAM is really such a bad thing. I understand the rules prohibit it, but it isn't like you are betting on the other team and then throwing the game. Betting on yourself seems like it would make you play harder, so where is the problem?



Betting is the worst thing possible. It gives fans the idea a game could not be legit.
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby HOOTIE » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:09 pm

apz wrote: Amphetamines won't make you go from hitting 49 hr to 73.


Neither can you prove roids will.

Ruth went from 29 to 54.
Maris went from 39 to 61.

49 to 73 proves nothing, except it was a 24 hr increase.
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby apz » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:11 pm

Yoda wrote:
apz wrote:
mweir145 wrote:...
Oh I read what he wrote, and I'm still trying to understand why the steroid users shouldn't be treated the same way as the amphetamine users.

Why are steroids, in your opinion, a greater performance enhancer and a greater indicator of "bad behaviour" than amphetamines? Because they help in strength training as opposed to being stimulents that increase energy and concentration? You don't think taking stimulents would affect the outcome of games?

I'm afraid you really have a lot to learn on this topic.

I don't think stimulants would make nearly as big a difference to performance as stimulants. If you have information to the contrary, let's see it. I'm no expert, but really doubt you'd get the same kind of boost from stimulants that Bonds and Clemens did from steroids. Hey, maybe I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time.


I am not sure how you can determine that. Perception is that steroids are worse than amphetamines but how do you know this for sure? Baseball is a very mental oriented game and brain stimulants could have a greater affect than you think. I personally know people who have done steroids but did not gain significant weight or increase in strength.

I don't know think there is a way to know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that the stats would back roids being more effective than stimulants. The players obviously think so or they wouldn't risk their health, careers and freedom to take them.
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby Yoda » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:15 pm

apz wrote:I don't know think there is a way to know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that the stats would back roids being more effective than stimulants. The players obviously think so or they wouldn't risk their health, careers and freedom to take them.


Again, you might be right but I am positive that you are severely underestimating the affects of amphetamines.
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby apz » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:19 pm

Yoda wrote:
apz wrote:I don't know think there is a way to know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that the stats would back roids being more effective than stimulants. The players obviously think so or they wouldn't risk their health, careers and freedom to take them.


Again, you might be right but I am positive that you are severely underestimating the affects of amphetamines.

That may be. We should ask Mwier. Apparently, he's an expert. :-b
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby Yoda » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:28 pm

apz wrote:
Yoda wrote:
apz wrote:I don't know think there is a way to know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that the stats would back roids being more effective than stimulants. The players obviously think so or they wouldn't risk their health, careers and freedom to take them.


Again, you might be right but I am positive that you are severely underestimating the affects of amphetamines.

That may be. We should ask Mwier. Apparently, he's an expert. :-b


I don't think he is acting like an expert at all. He's trying to say that you are severely underestimating the effects of amphetamines. It's been around longer and used by more players. If it wasn't effective, then why has it been such a staple supplement in the game?
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby HOOTIE » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:38 pm

apz wrote:I don't know think there is a way to know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that the stats would back roids being more effective than stimulants. The players obviously think so or they wouldn't risk their health, careers and freedom to take them.


Guess which substance (roids or greenies), the players union fought hardest to keep from being tested?

Greenies.

2004 was the 1st year roid testing was done. Greenies still were not tested for yet, thank the (MLB players union).

2005 was the 1st year greenies were tested for.

Now ask yourself why would the players want to keep their greenies more then their roids?

Greenie use by most accounts was higher then roid use.

162 games is a grind. Roids won't make you alert at the plate. Help you feel peppy (day game after a night game).
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby apz » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:39 pm

Yoda wrote:...
I don't think he is acting like an expert at all. He's trying to say that you are severely underestimating the effects of amphetamines. It's been around longer and used by more players. If it wasn't effective, then why has it been such a staple supplement in the game?

Why do people drink coffee everyday? To get that boost of energy. It doesn't make me better at my job, it just gets me through the day.

Well, we'll find out soon enough. With all the testing now, I think steroid and amphetamine use will plummet. Will we see a drop off of stats at all? If so, will they drop back to pre-steroid levels or will they go down even more. It should be interesting and should give a good indication of how much of an effect they have. If stats drop to pre-steroid levels I think it would be safe to say that amphetamine use has a negligible effect. If they drop even more, then I'll believe that amphetamines had a large impact.
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby Yoda » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:58 pm

apz wrote:
Yoda wrote:...
I don't think he is acting like an expert at all. He's trying to say that you are severely underestimating the effects of amphetamines. It's been around longer and used by more players. If it wasn't effective, then why has it been such a staple supplement in the game?

Why do people drink coffee everyday? To get that boost of energy. It doesn't make me better at my job, it just gets me through the day.

Well, we'll find out soon enough. With all the testing now, I think steroid and amphetamine use will plummet. Will we see a drop off of stats at all? If so, will they drop back to pre-steroid levels or will they go down even more. It should be interesting and should give a good indication of how much of an effect they have. If stats drop to pre-steroid levels I think it would be safe to say that amphetamine use has a negligible effect. If they drop even more, then I'll believe that amphetamines had a large impact.


Coffee is legal in this country and also in the rest of the free world. Did you really just compare coffee with amphetamines? Amphetamines are mind altering drugs. Are cigarettes the same as pot? :-°
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