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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby RyanK » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:47 pm

Lofunzo wrote:
RyanK wrote:So the Pete Rose scandal is a lot bigger than I thought :-P

http://www.dowdreport.com/

ive skimmed/read through the first two parts and agreement with the commissioner... fairly interesting


It's amazing how good some sober research can be. :-b



Yeah, also having pretty much complete ignorance on the topic doesn't help me much (due to it happening before i even knew what a baseball was)


Wouldn't you have to potentially treat steroids in the same regard as what happened with Rose?

I guess thats basically the question ive been thinking, and feel that Rose should either be let in or Bud has some dirty work to do...
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby mweir145 » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:03 pm

apz wrote:
mweir145 wrote:...
Oh I read what he wrote, and I'm still trying to understand why the steroid users shouldn't be treated the same way as the amphetamine users.

Why are steroids, in your opinion, a greater performance enhancer and a greater indicator of "bad behaviour" than amphetamines? Because they help in strength training as opposed to being stimulents that increase energy and concentration? You don't think taking stimulents would affect the outcome of games?

I'm afraid you really have a lot to learn on this topic.

I don't think stimulants would make nearly as big a difference to performance as stimulants. If you have information to the contrary, let's see it. I'm no expert, but really doubt you'd get the same kind of boost from stimulants that Bonds and Clemens did from steroids. Hey, maybe I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

You don't see how stimulants taken before every game that can provide a boost of energy and concentration wouldn't make a big difference in performance? Seriously?

Arguably they would make a far greater difference than the additional strength that can be gained through the use of steroids in training programs.
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby mweir145 » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:05 pm

RyanK wrote:Wouldn't you have to potentially treat steroids in the same regard as what happened with Rose?
I guess thats basically the question ive been thinking, and feel that Rose should either be let in or Bud has some dirty work to do...

One thing is frowned upon by baseball people, and is the worst thing you can do in baseball (betting on baseball). One has been a part of baseball culture for many decades (PED use). So no, you wouldn't treat Rose the same as the steroid users, especially considering he actually agreed to his own ban.
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby BronXBombers51 » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:07 pm

Lofunzo wrote:
mweir145 wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:You really amaze me with your constant slippery slope arguments. Speeding tickets?? Nice. You have constantly said that it wasn't against the rules of MLB. That "memo" clearly states that drug use, including steroids, was against the rules. Sure, the testing was a farce but it was clearly against the law and against the rules.

Without actual drug testing and a real rule written down somewhere, that memo is practically worthless in the eyes of the MLBPA. You do realize that, I suppose?


My point is that it was against the rules of MLB for much longer than many wish to admit. It was an amazingly weak policy, though. I get that. I just wanted to clarify that it was against the rules but the policy wasn't anything to strike fear into any of the players.


Fair enough, but without guidelines for punishment, is it really a policy at all? Not in my opinion. They basically popped their head in the door and said, "Hey....uh....don't do drugs, guys. We aren't going to test you or anything, but uh....yeah." You can't punish people in retrospect. If there wasn't a punishment outlined when these players used, then you can't go back and punish them after the fact.

I don't consider that memo a policy at all. If you aren't going to enforce punishments, then what's the point? Are you technically breaking a rule? I suppose, but you yourself admit how pathetically weak of an attempt it was. It's as if you were in high school and your principle told you that skipping class is against the rules...however they weren't going to take attendance/make sure you're in class or mark down your grade for doing it. Is that really a policy? Not in my opinion. It's a joke.
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby BronXBombers51 » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:11 pm

apz wrote:
mweir145 wrote:...
Oh I read what he wrote, and I'm still trying to understand why the steroid users shouldn't be treated the same way as the amphetamine users.

Why are steroids, in your opinion, a greater performance enhancer and a greater indicator of "bad behaviour" than amphetamines? Because they help in strength training as opposed to being stimulents that increase energy and concentration? You don't think taking stimulents would affect the outcome of games?

I'm afraid you really have a lot to learn on this topic.

I don't think stimulants would make nearly as big a difference to performance as stimulants. If you have information to the contrary, let's see it. I'm no expert, but really doubt you'd get the same kind of boost from stimulants that Bonds and Clemens did from steroids. Hey, maybe I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time.


So what happens in 50 years when Drug X gives players boosts that are much more profound than steroids? Then we'll be looking back on steroids the same way you're looking back on amphetamines right now.

And that's simply based on your theory than amphetamines aren't as profound as steroids...which I fully disagree with.
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby apz » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:00 pm

mweir145 wrote:
apz wrote:
mweir145 wrote:...
Oh I read what he wrote, and I'm still trying to understand why the steroid users shouldn't be treated the same way as the amphetamine users.

Why are steroids, in your opinion, a greater performance enhancer and a greater indicator of "bad behaviour" than amphetamines? Because they help in strength training as opposed to being stimulents that increase energy and concentration? You don't think taking stimulents would affect the outcome of games?

I'm afraid you really have a lot to learn on this topic.

I don't think stimulants would make nearly as big a difference to performance as stimulants. If you have information to the contrary, let's see it. I'm no expert, but really doubt you'd get the same kind of boost from stimulants that Bonds and Clemens did from steroids. Hey, maybe I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

You don't see how stimulants taken before every game that can provide a boost of energy and concentration wouldn't make a big difference in performance? Seriously?

Arguably they would make a far greater difference than the additional strength that can be gained through the use of steroids in training programs.

I disagree about roids being more effective than stimulants; again, just my opinion. You said I had a lot to learn. I assume you wouldn't say that unless you had some knowledge or proof on the subject, not just your opinion. I guess your opinion is more valid than mine eh? I think stimulants would help them concentrate sure, but looking at the stats of some players during the era of steroids makes me think that steroids have a far greater impact. I never claimed that stimulants wouldn't help some; coffee, nicotine, amphetamines, cocaine, etc. will give a short term boost of energy, but it won't make you throw faster, run faster or hit the ball further. In fact, stimulants can also have the effect of throwing off your concentration due to your mind racing from topic to topic; I know that from experience. Stimulants wouldn't have made Bonds the hr king; steroids did.
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby apz » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:05 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:...
Fair enough, but without guidelines for punishment, is it really a policy at all? Not in my opinion. They basically popped their head in the door and said, "Hey....uh....don't do drugs, guys. We aren't going to test you or anything, but uh....yeah." You can't punish people in retrospect. If there wasn't a punishment outlined when these players used, then you can't go back and punish them after the fact.

I don't consider that memo a policy at all. If you aren't going to enforce punishments, then what's the point? Are you technically breaking a rule? I suppose, but you yourself admit how pathetically weak of an attempt it was. It's as if you were in high school and your principle told you that skipping class is against the rules...however they weren't going to take attendance/make sure you're in class or mark down your grade for doing it. Is that really a policy? Not in my opinion. It's a joke.

Yet people are laying the blame on the commissioner, but the commissioner can't do anything without the agreement of the union. The union is the players; the players are the ones that fought it. So how can you blame the commissioner if he tried to do something but was blocked by the very people he was trying to police?
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby Lofunzo » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:20 pm

mweir145 wrote:
RyanK wrote:Wouldn't you have to potentially treat steroids in the same regard as what happened with Rose?
I guess thats basically the question ive been thinking, and feel that Rose should either be let in or Bud has some dirty work to do...

One thing is frowned upon by baseball people, and is the worst thing you can do in baseball (betting on baseball). One has been a part of baseball culture for many decades (PED use). So no, you wouldn't treat Rose the same as the steroid users, especially considering he actually agreed to his own ban.


Not nearly as many incidents that we know of but gambling in and on baseball has been going on for many decades as well.
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby Yoda » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:32 pm

apz wrote:
mweir145 wrote:...
Oh I read what he wrote, and I'm still trying to understand why the steroid users shouldn't be treated the same way as the amphetamine users.

Why are steroids, in your opinion, a greater performance enhancer and a greater indicator of "bad behaviour" than amphetamines? Because they help in strength training as opposed to being stimulents that increase energy and concentration? You don't think taking stimulents would affect the outcome of games?

I'm afraid you really have a lot to learn on this topic.

I don't think stimulants would make nearly as big a difference to performance as stimulants. If you have information to the contrary, let's see it. I'm no expert, but really doubt you'd get the same kind of boost from stimulants that Bonds and Clemens did from steroids. Hey, maybe I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time.


I am not sure how you can determine that. Perception is that steroids are worse than amphetamines but how do you know this for sure? Baseball is a very mental oriented game and brain stimulants could have a greater affect than you think. I personally know people who have done steroids but did not gain significant weight or increase in strength.
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby mweir145 » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:36 pm

apz wrote:
mweir145 wrote:
apz wrote:I don't think stimulants would make nearly as big a difference to performance as stimulants. If you have information to the contrary, let's see it. I'm no expert, but really doubt you'd get the same kind of boost from stimulants that Bonds and Clemens did from steroids. Hey, maybe I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

You don't see how stimulants taken before every game that can provide a boost of energy and concentration wouldn't make a big difference in performance? Seriously?

Arguably they would make a far greater difference than the additional strength that can be gained through the use of steroids in training programs.

I disagree about roids being more effective than stimulants; again, just my opinion. You said I had a lot to learn. I assume you wouldn't say that unless you had some knowledge or proof on the subject, not just your opinion. I guess your opinion is more valid than mine eh? I think stimulants would help them concentrate sure, but looking at the stats of some players during the era of steroids makes me think that steroids have a far greater impact.

Amphetamines are the drugs that actually allow and give most of these guys the energy to play 162 games in a full season. I would consider that far more "performance enhancing" than steroids, wouldn't you?

As for whether steroids do all the things you say, well the players certainly believe that they do (or else they wouldn't use them). However, nothing conclusive has ever been determined on that front.

Stimulants wouldn't have made Bonds the hr king; steroids did.

Barry Bonds made himself the HR king through hard work while presumably using both substances.
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