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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby mweir145 » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:39 pm

apz wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:He sent a memo.
'nuff said.
There was no testing. There was no punishments. And again...amphetamines are illegal too. Does that mean we can go back and nab Aaron and Mays?

They couldn't do any testing or punishing without consent of the union.
Amphetamines won't make you go from hitting 49 hr to 73.

What does that have to do with the argument he was trying to make? The fact that they don't help in strength training has nothing to do with anything.

BTW, I continue to find it amusing when people downplay the effectiveness of amphetamines as a performance enhancer, but that's a whole other issue.
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby mweir145 » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:41 pm

Lofunzo wrote:You really amaze me with your constant slippery slope arguments. Speeding tickets?? Nice. You have constantly said that it wasn't against the rules of MLB. That "memo" clearly states that drug use, including steroids, was against the rules. Sure, the testing was a farce but it was clearly against the law and against the rules.

Without actual drug testing and a real rule written down somewhere, that memo is practically worthless in the eyes of the MLBPA. You do realize that, I suppose?
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby Lofunzo » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:47 pm

mweir145 wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:You really amaze me with your constant slippery slope arguments. Speeding tickets?? Nice. You have constantly said that it wasn't against the rules of MLB. That "memo" clearly states that drug use, including steroids, was against the rules. Sure, the testing was a farce but it was clearly against the law and against the rules.

Without actual drug testing and a real rule written down somewhere, that memo is practically worthless in the eyes of the MLBPA. You do realize that, I suppose?


My point is that it was against the rules of MLB for much longer than many wish to admit. It was an amazingly weak policy, though. I get that. I just wanted to clarify that it was against the rules but the policy wasn't anything to strike fear into any of the players.
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby apz » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:49 pm

mweir145 wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:You really amaze me with your constant slippery slope arguments. Speeding tickets?? Nice. You have constantly said that it wasn't against the rules of MLB. That "memo" clearly states that drug use, including steroids, was against the rules. Sure, the testing was a farce but it was clearly against the law and against the rules.

Without actual drug testing and a real rule written down somewhere, that memo is practically worthless in the eyes of the MLBPA. You do realize that, I suppose?

Of course it's not, but over and over again people are posting that MLB is at least as much to blame as the players for not implementing a drug policy, but they can't do so without the agreement of the players.
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby mweir145 » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:53 pm

Well it is for that reason that I don't really blame Bud Selig at all. Nothing, outside of a huge public announcement (and no commissioner would to release their beliefs that drug use was prevalent in their sport, so that isn't realistic), could have gotten the players to change their stance on a drug policy.
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby apz » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:00 pm

mweir145 wrote:
apz wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:He sent a memo.
'nuff said.
There was no testing. There was no punishments. And again...amphetamines are illegal too. Does that mean we can go back and nab Aaron and Mays?

They couldn't do any testing or punishing without consent of the union.
Amphetamines won't make you go from hitting 49 hr to 73.

What does that have to do with the argument he was trying to make? The fact that they don't help in strength training has nothing to do with anything.

BTW, I continue to find it amusing when people downplay the effectiveness of amphetamines as a performance enhancer, but that's a whole other issue.

He's saying if one is illegal shouldn't we punish for others. I disagree. The added strength some players got from using steroids made them far better players than they would otherwise have been. There are degrees of bad behavior and steroids, imo, are much worse than amphetamines. When players are doing something that is not only illegal, but it effects the outcome of games, something should be done.
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby mweir145 » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:21 pm

apz wrote:
mweir145 wrote:
apz wrote:They couldn't do any testing or punishing without consent of the union.
Amphetamines won't make you go from hitting 49 hr to 73.

What does that have to do with the argument he was trying to make? The fact that they don't help in strength training has nothing to do with anything.

BTW, I continue to find it amusing when people downplay the effectiveness of amphetamines as a performance enhancer, but that's a whole other issue.

He's saying if one is illegal shouldn't we punish for others. I disagree. The added strength some players got from using steroids made them far better players than they would otherwise have been. There are degrees of bad behavior and steroids, imo, are much worse than amphetamines. When players are doing something that is not only illegal, but it effects the outcome of games, something should be done.

Oh I read what he wrote, and I'm still trying to understand why the steroid users shouldn't be treated the same way as the amphetamine users.

Why are steroids, in your opinion, a greater performance enhancer and a greater indicator of "bad behaviour" than amphetamines? Because they help in strength training as opposed to being stimulents that increase energy and concentration? You don't think taking stimulents would affect the outcome of games?

I'm afraid you really have a lot to learn on this topic.
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby RyanK » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:24 pm

So the Pete Rose scandal is a lot bigger than I thought :-P

http://www.dowdreport.com/

ive skimmed/read through the first two parts and agreement with the commissioner... fairly interesting
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby Lofunzo » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:28 pm

RyanK wrote:So the Pete Rose scandal is a lot bigger than I thought :-P

http://www.dowdreport.com/

ive skimmed/read through the first two parts and agreement with the commissioner... fairly interesting


It's amazing how good some sober research can be. :-b
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Re: PETE ROSE

Postby apz » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:30 pm

mweir145 wrote:...
Oh I read what he wrote, and I'm still trying to understand why the steroid users shouldn't be treated the same way as the amphetamine users.

Why are steroids, in your opinion, a greater performance enhancer and a greater indicator of "bad behaviour" than amphetamines? Because they help in strength training as opposed to being stimulents that increase energy and concentration? You don't think taking stimulents would affect the outcome of games?

I'm afraid you really have a lot to learn on this topic.

I don't think stimulants would make nearly as big a difference to performance as stimulants. If you have information to the contrary, let's see it. I'm no expert, but really doubt you'd get the same kind of boost from stimulants that Bonds and Clemens did from steroids. Hey, maybe I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time.
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