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Clemens = Liar Liar Pants On Fire?

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Did Roger Clemens Lie About Taking Steroids Today?

Poll ended at Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:37 pm

Absolutely no doubt about it - YES!
42
72%
Maybe
3
5%
No , he is an honest man
2
3%
I like pop tarts :-S
11
19%
 
Total votes : 58

Re: Clemens = Liar Liar Pants On Fire?

Postby hot4tx » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:28 am

It doesn't matter to me personally either way. Bonds could face Clemens with both of them having steroid needles sticking out of their asses while they guzzle gatorade bottles full of HGH and shoot rhinoceros testosterone straight into their eyelids between pitches and all I'd care about would be the outcome of the matchup.


If you had a son/nephew/relative that died from liver/kidney failure in his teens or early 20's because he's trying to emulate these guys then it would matter. That's the reason Congress has gotten involved. I understand there is some political grandstanding going on, but trying to cut this stuff out as much as possible so kids can compete without doping up is a pretty big reason for many people. Not trying to get up on a soap box, just saying that's why a lot of people care so much about stopping people from doing it and punishing those who have done this.
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Re: Clemens = Liar Liar Pants On Fire?

Postby Art Vandelay » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:04 am

hot4tx wrote:
It doesn't matter to me personally either way. Bonds could face Clemens with both of them having steroid needles sticking out of their asses while they guzzle gatorade bottles full of HGH and shoot rhinoceros testosterone straight into their eyelids between pitches and all I'd care about would be the outcome of the matchup.


If you had a son/nephew/relative that died from liver/kidney failure in his teens or early 20's because he's trying to emulate these guys then it would matter. That's the reason Congress has gotten involved. I understand there is some political grandstanding going on, but trying to cut this stuff out as much as possible so kids can compete without doping up is a pretty big reason for many people. Not trying to get up on a soap box, just saying that's why a lot of people care so much about stopping people from doing it and punishing those who have done this.


Please...spare me the "Save Our Children" routine. I've had friends and family members killed by drug overdoses and firearms, but I'll continue to support the right of people to own guns and argue for legalization of drugs. Roger Clemens isn't responsible for anyone's kids but his own.
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Re: Clemens = Liar Liar Pants On Fire?

Postby AussieDodger » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:19 am

9 votes for pop tarts :-D
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Re: Clemens = Liar Liar Pants On Fire?

Postby hot4tx » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:38 pm

Please...spare me the "Save Our Children" routine.


If you expect others to take your views/opinions seriously, you should try to do the same with theirs also. Again I didn't mean it as a routine, just stating an opinion.

And you're right, it's not Roger Clemen's job to protect children from such things. However, the Government and many other people believe it's our leaders' job to do so. While I disagree with your stance on illegal drugs, at least you're consistent. I have a hard time getting past people who do not include steroid abuse with the abuse of other drugs.
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Re: Clemens = Liar Liar Pants On Fire?

Postby Bloody Sox » Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:31 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:Other than that, my only defense has been the same defense that I've made regarding every other accused steroid user: that they should all be able to use whatever they want.

And to hell with all those guys who don't want to shoot themselves up with all sorts of harmful/deadly crap just to get a fair shot at the big leagues and/or a big payday... go home you pansies!!!
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Re: Clemens = Liar Liar Pants On Fire?

Postby Art Vandelay » Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:38 pm

hot4tx wrote:
Please...spare me the "Save Our Children" routine.


If you expect others to take your views/opinions seriously, you should try to do the same with theirs also. Again I didn't mean it as a routine, just stating an opinion.

And you're right, it's not Roger Clemen's job to protect children from such things. However, the Government and many other people believe it's our leaders' job to do so. While I disagree with your stance on illegal drugs, at least you're consistent. I have a hard time getting past people who do not include steroid abuse with the abuse of other drugs.


If I didn't take your opinion seriously, I wouldn't have taken the time to respond to it. But you're right, I could have done so without being crass. I didn't mean that as a personal attack against you (though clearly it can be read that way) but more of an attack against the "what about the kids" mentality, which I've debated ad nauseam with others in the steroids threads here.
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Re: Clemens = Liar Liar Pants On Fire?

Postby Art Vandelay » Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:49 pm

Bloody Sox wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:Other than that, my only defense has been the same defense that I've made regarding every other accused steroid user: that they should all be able to use whatever they want.

And to hell with all those guys who don't want to shoot themselves up with all sorts of harmful/deadly crap just to get a fair shot at the big leagues and/or a big payday... go home you pansies!!!

There are millions of people all over the world under far more dangerous conditions for way less money, but nobody seems to care about them. The way I see it, if someone doesn't want to use PEDs because they don't want to risk their health, and without them they can't make it, then they should probably pursue another career path. I've had very dangerous jobs before, and nobody seemed to care, but if baseball players have to put their health at risk, then it's a huge problem? It should be viewed as a risk associated with the job, if you can't cut it without PEDs, and you're unwilling to take them, find a new line of work.
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Re: Clemens = Liar Liar Pants On Fire?

Postby hot4tx » Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:57 pm

I didn't mean that as a personal attack against you (though clearly it can be read that way) but more of an attack against the "what about the kids" mentality, which I've debated ad nauseam with others in the steroids threads here.


Well thanks, and in hindsight I'll try not being such a girl in the future and put my purse down when posting on the interweb. :-D
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Re: Clemens = Liar Liar Pants On Fire?

Postby Bloody Sox » Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:50 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:
Bloody Sox wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:Other than that, my only defense has been the same defense that I've made regarding every other accused steroid user: that they should all be able to use whatever they want.

And to hell with all those guys who don't want to shoot themselves up with all sorts of harmful/deadly crap just to get a fair shot at the big leagues and/or a big payday... go home you pansies!!!

There are millions of people all over the world under far more dangerous conditions for way less money, but nobody seems to care about them.
Unless I'm mistaken, we are talking about baseball, and I think we can all agree that in the grand scheme of things it is not really all that important. But here we are, all talking about it in late December.

The way I see it, if someone doesn't want to use PEDs because they don't want to risk their health, and without them they can't make it, then they should probably pursue another career path.
That reasoning is terrible. Why should a clean guy in Triple-A who is good enough to be in the majors but isn't only because everyone else is dirty be forced to quit something he is good enough to do? Or if a guy is a bench player in the majors making the league minimum but should be starting and making millions, why should that guy have to sacrifice millions of dollars?

I've had very dangerous jobs before, and nobody seemed to care, but if baseball players have to put their health at risk, then it's a huge problem?
Again, in the grand scheme of things, of course its not a huge problem - but if you are comparing baseball's problems to world peace, hunger, collapsing coal mines, etc. then that means that we can't ever discuss any problems with baseball because they all pale in comparison.

It should be viewed as a risk associated with the job, if you can't cut it without PEDs, and you're unwilling to take them, find a new line of work.
That's crap. Getting a ball hit back at your face is an inherent risk, tearing an ACL sliding into a base is an inherent risk - being forced to ingest an illegal substance to stay equally competitive is not an inherent risk. In fact, it is the exact opposite of an inherent risk - I guess that would make it an extrinsic risk.
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Re: Clemens = Liar Liar Pants On Fire?

Postby Art Vandelay » Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:56 pm

Bloody Sox wrote:
The way I see it, if someone doesn't want to use PEDs because they don't want to risk their health, and without them they can't make it, then they should probably pursue another career path.
That reasoning is terrible. Why should a clean guy in Triple-A who is good enough to be in the majors but isn't only because everyone else is dirty be forced to quit something he is good enough to do? Or if a guy is a bench player in the majors making the league minimum but should be starting and making millions, why should that guy have to sacrifice millions of dollars?

If he was good enough to be in the majors, he'd be there. If he's not good enough, but he would be with steroids, then he has to decide whether or not the health risk is worth the reward. Millions of people make similar decisions about their jobs every day, I don't think baseball players should be exempt. Let them all take whatever they want, and let them all decide if taking whatever they take is worth it. They're grown men, we don't need to protect them from themselves.

Bloody Sox wrote:
I've had very dangerous jobs before, and nobody seemed to care, but if baseball players have to put their health at risk, then it's a huge problem?
Again, in the grand scheme of things, of course its not a huge problem - but if you are comparing baseball's problems to world peace, hunger, collapsing coal mines, etc. then that means that we can't ever discuss any problems with baseball because they all pale in comparison.

I'm not comparing the problems of baseball players to world peace or hunger, I'm saying that baseball, like any other profession, involves risk. We should let people decide for themselves how much risk is too much, and what actions make the reward worth it.
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