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Clemens named in Mitchell report

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Re: Clemens named in Mitchell report

Postby mweir145 » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:43 am

kentx12 wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
kentx12 wrote:It was against the rules but even worse than that it was AGAINST THE LAW


OH MY GOD.

A LOT of things are against the law. Not just steroid use.



Do you realize what you type or do you just bable? Alot of things are aginst the law and when you get caught breaking those laws you have to pay the price. Bonds, Mcgwire, Clemens "if guilty" and all others will have to pay that price. This is a great thing about the country we live in, there are laws. ;-D

So everyone that's ever broken a law, and everyone that ever will, isn't allowed to be in the HOF in your opinion?

Insanity.
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Re: Clemens named in Mitchell report

Postby mweir145 » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:46 am

Lofunzo wrote:Do you not see a difference between the 2 situations?? This is the first "proof" about Clemens.

Clemens was named by Grimsley last year in October. He denied it, the media accepted that, and it went away. This is really no different, it's just his personal trainer doing the accusing this time.
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Re: Clemens named in Mitchell report

Postby mweir145 » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:53 am

Lofunzo wrote:
Yoda wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:I don't care about his perjury. If the government wants to go after him for it, so be it.

I'm talking strictly on a baseball level. Baseball has no right to punish him. Even if it could be proven that he took steroids while the MLB steroid policy is in place, there is nothing in their policy that states they are allowed to ban him from the HOF or take away his records. If Bonds gets caught using steroids, he should be held to the same standard as every other offender: 50 game suspension.

Bonds broke a US law and should be held accountable by the US legal system. The only way MLB has the right to hold Bonds accountable is if he broke one of their rules. He didn't.

I don't condone breaking US law. I have no problem with Bonds getting what he has coming to him in a courtroom. His baseball legacy and records are another matter, though. They should not be touched.


Selig spearheading this thing is a complete joke.


How so?? I see 2 solid reasons to start this. First, he is the commish of the league and wants to do something to clean it up. I have no issue with this. Second, if you think that MLB is to blame here*, maybe he is realizing that he needs to correct an old mistake. I do laugh at the comparisons, though. Baseball was in serious trouble when steroids seemed to get more popular. Baseball is doing fine now. I see no problem in trying to clean it up even if you blame him in the first place. There is nothing wrong with learning from your mistakes.

PED use is part of baseball's culture and has been for 50 years, so if you define "doing fine" as having a "clean" league, then no, that hasn't happened, nor will it ever happen.
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Re: Clemens named in Mitchell report

Postby mweir145 » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:57 am

BronXBombers51 wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:Exactly. Call Bonds a cheater if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that numerous others cheated right along with him. Yet, Bonds is public enemy #1. I can understand why people are put off by the HR leader being a 'cheater'. It's because these records have been built up to be something that they're not. These records didn't become dirty when Bonds got them. These records were always questionable. Is it really fair to compare Aaron's 755 to Ruth's 714 when Aaron had amphetamines working for him? Would Ruth even have hit 714 if he played against the full population?

The records aren't gospel, but many people perceive them as such. That's the problem. Bonds didn't destroy baseball. I would argue that baseball hasn't been tarnished at all, but if it was, it was MLB's doing. Not Barry Bonds.


I just noticed this post in full. The problem is that the records in a way are gospel. Baseball is a numbers game. Much more than any other sport. Does anyone know what the leading career rushing yards is?? For a season?? What about the NBA?? You get the point. Baseball is all about numbers and Bonds holds the 2 greatest numbers there are. That means a lot and his supporters seems to ignore that.


I agree...that is the problem. That's the entire problem. People take these records very seriously. My point is....they shouldn't. They've never been completely clean and they never will. Athletes will always look for a competitive advantage. It's a fact of life. They will strive for the records, the fame and the money.

People have the preconceived notion that these record books were squeaky clean before Bonds came along. It's simply not true. The bottom line is, you can't compare players from different eras based on these raw numbers. It's not fair to compare Aaron's HR total to Ruth's, just as it's not fair to compare Bonds' to Aaron's.

I understand that the records are huge in baseball. My point is that they shouldn't be.

Exactly. You sound a lot like me there. :-D
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Re: Clemens named in Mitchell report

Postby SignGuy » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:58 am

mweir145 wrote:PED use is part of baseball's culture and has been for 50 years, so if you define "doing fine" as having a "clean" league, then no, that hasn't happened, nor will it ever happen.


50 years???? More like 20-25, no? I dont think anyone in Aarons days were on PED's and he played in the 60's and 70's
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Re: Clemens named in Mitchell report

Postby mweir145 » Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:01 am

SignGuy wrote:
mweir145 wrote:PED use is part of baseball's culture and has been for 50 years, so if you define "doing fine" as having a "clean" league, then no, that hasn't happened, nor will it ever happen.


50 years???? More like 20-25, no? I dont think anyone in Aarons days were on PED's and he played in the 60's and 70's

Amphetamines are PEDs.
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Re: Clemens named in Mitchell report

Postby HOOTIE » Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:32 am

SignGuy wrote:
mweir145 wrote:PED use is part of baseball's culture and has been for 50 years, so if you define "doing fine" as having a "clean" league, then no, that hasn't happened, nor will it ever happen.


50 years???? More like 20-25, no? I dont think anyone in Aarons days were on PED's and he played in the 60's and 70's


Greenies were around in the 60's. Became even bigger in the 70's and 80's. The 79 Pirates (We are Family), and the 86 Mets were 2 of the most notorious users in history. Mays kept red juice (greenies) in his locker. Nobody cared. Aaron tried greenies (autobiography). Greenies aren't something new. And they did the same thing in 1960 as they do now, ( enable players to be alert for day games after a night game). Enable guys at the end of season to have energy to keep playing. Being alert at the plate, on the mound, or in the field isn't a advantage? Being able to play (versus a day off), isn't a advantage?
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Re: Clemens named in Mitchell report

Postby DK » Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:38 am

mweir145 wrote:
kentx12 wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:OH MY GOD.

A LOT of things are against the law. Not just steroid use.



Do you realize what you type or do you just bable? Alot of things are aginst the law and when you get caught breaking those laws you have to pay the price. Bonds, Mcgwire, Clemens "if guilty" and all others will have to pay that price. This is a great thing about the country we live in, there are laws. ;-D

So everyone that's ever broken a law, and everyone that ever will, isn't allowed to be in the HOF in your opinion?

Insanity.


About two years ago I saw Albert Pujols cross the street against a red light.

GONE
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Re: Clemens named in Mitchell report

Postby Lofunzo » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:28 am

HOOTIE wrote:Probably the saddest thing of this whole thread, is the general lack of baseball history displayed. Bonds or Clemens didn't invent (cheating) in MLB. Of my years in the Cafe, lack of history seems to be the biggest negative in certain threads.


I disagree. Maybe based on being naive but my problem is based on the purity of history.

mweir145 wrote:Do you believe that everyone in the HOF is clean? Because I think you'd have to believe that to think the way you think.


I agree with you.......to a point. In an ideal world, if there was a way for us to know exactly who cheated and who didn't, I would love to see cheaters all thrown out. Unfortunately, we will never know. Hence, there is no way to pick and choose your cheaters.

mweir145 wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:Do you not see a difference between the 2 situations?? This is the first "proof" about Clemens.

Clemens was named by Grimsley last year in October. He denied it, the media accepted that, and it went away. This is really no different, it's just his personal trainer doing the accusing this time.


By proof, I mean proof. Being named doesn't mean anything to me. Having someone detail multiple years to me does.

mweir145 wrote:PED use is part of baseball's culture and has been for 50 years, so if you define "doing fine" as having a "clean" league, then no, that hasn't happened, nor will it ever happen.


Be completely honest. Has this been a known issue for 50 years?? Did the league and the fans know about this for 50 years or did this all recently come out?? I never heard about them and I am as big of a sports fan as they come. I know that you are younger than me so you haven't been following PED use in MLB for that long, have you?? My point is that we can't act like all of us knew about it for 50 years. Just that it existed.
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Re: Clemens named in Mitchell report

Postby mweir145 » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:41 am

Lofunzo wrote:Be completely honest. Has this been a known issue for 50 years?? Did the league and the fans know about this for 50 years or did this all recently come out?? I never heard about them and I am as big of a sports fan as they come. I know that you are younger than me so you haven't been following PED use in MLB for that long, have you?? My point is that we can't act like all of us knew about it for 50 years. Just that it existed.

It's been out there all along, people just haven't noticed or cared to notice until recently for whatever reason.
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