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The Mitchell Investigation

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Re: The Mitchell Investigation

Postby KCollins1304 » Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:12 pm

I've been thinking about the whole "Is Bonds treated unfairly?" thing for a while, my gut reaction is no. I thought this was maybe my bias against him in general because of his personality, but I think I have found away to convey this. Pretend steroid didn't exist, and all articles about Bonds and steroid were instead about celebrating the great baseball homerun hitter. How many of you would be complaining that Bonds was getting more media attention than Alex Sanchez or Matt Herges then?

EDIT: My point being the better player you are, the more media attention you get in general, whether it is good or bad. Players that cause people to have opinions is what sells papers.
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Re: The Mitchell Investigation

Postby BronXBombers51 » Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:14 pm

KCollins1304 wrote:I've been thinking about the whole "Is Bonds treated unfairly?" thing for a while, my gut reaction is no. I thought this was maybe my bias against him in general because of his personality, but I think I have found away to convey this. Pretend steroid didn't exist, and all articles about Bonds and steroid were instead about celebrating the great baseball homerun hitter. How many of you would be complaining that Bonds was getting more media attention than Alex Sanchez or Matt Herges then?

EDIT: My point being the better player you are, the more media attention you get in general, whether it is good or bad. Players that cause people to have opinions is what sells papers.


I would expect Bonds to get more attention due to his status as a baseball icon. I would be a fool to not expect that.

What I'm arguing against, is the people who say Bonds should be punished/kicked from the HOF/records erased/kicked out of baseball, and don't say the same things about guys like Giambi and Sanchez and Sosa and Palmeiro etc.

Just because he gets more media attention doesn't mean he should be held to a higher standard because of it. Obviously there is going to be more coverage about Bonds. But that doesn't make it right to hold him to a different standard than anyone else. They are all guilty. Bonds just commands more attention because he's better than everyone.

It's one thing to talk about the steroid problem in baseball IN GENERAL and talk about Bonds...that's blatantly necessary due to the fact that he's one of the greatest players of this generation. But these aren't the conversations. The conversations are explicitly about Bonds and what to do about HIM and people complaining that he should be kicked out and his records destroyed, as if HE'S the problem. It's hypocrisy. If you're going to say those things about Bonds, be consistent in your argument.

Bonds gets a bad rep because he's good. acs, basically what you're saying is...it's ok to treat good players like s**t but who cares about the hundreds of others who committed the same act, because they suck. That's ridiculous. They should all be held to the same standard. Bonds isn't any more guilty than anyone else simply because he's BETTER than them. Yet he's being treated as if he is.
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Re: The Mitchell Investigation

Postby J35J » Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:21 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:
KCollins1304 wrote:I've been thinking about the whole "Is Bonds treated unfairly?" thing for a while, my gut reaction is no. I thought this was maybe my bias against him in general because of his personality, but I think I have found away to convey this. Pretend steroid didn't exist, and all articles about Bonds and steroid were instead about celebrating the great baseball homerun hitter. How many of you would be complaining that Bonds was getting more media attention than Alex Sanchez or Matt Herges then?

EDIT: My point being the better player you are, the more media attention you get in general, whether it is good or bad. Players that cause people to have opinions is what sells papers.


I would expect Bonds to get more attention due to his status as a baseball icon. I would be a fool to not expect that.

What I'm arguing against, is the people who say Bonds should be punished/kicked from the HOF/records erased/kicked out of baseball, and don't say the same things about guys like Giambi and Sanchez and Sosa and Palmeiro etc.

Just because he gets more media attention doesn't mean he should be held to a higher standard because of it. Obviously there is going to be more coverage about Bonds. But that doesn't make it right to hold him to a different standard than anyone else. They are all guilty. Bonds just commands more attention because he's better than everyone.

It's one thing to talk about the steroid problem in baseball IN GENERAL and talk about Bonds...that's blatantly necessary due to the fact that he's one of the greatest players of this generation. But these aren't the conversations. The conversations are explicitly about Bonds and what to do about HIM and people complaining that he should be kicked out and his records destroyed, as if HE'S the problem. It's hypocrisy. If you're going to say those things about Bonds, be consistent in your argument.

Bonds gets a bad rep because he's good. acs, basically what you're saying is...it's ok to treat good players like s**t but who cares about the hundreds of others who committed the same act, because they suck. That's ridiculous. They should all be held to the same standard. Bonds isn't any more guilty than anyone else simply because he's BETTER than them. Yet he's being treated as if he is.



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Re: The Mitchell Investigation

Postby Yoda » Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:49 pm

I'm still wondering how Selig still is the commish. How the hell is he still holding that position with the way this entire steroids thing have been handled?
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Re: The Mitchell Investigation

Postby acsguitar » Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:58 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:
Bonds gets a bad rep because he's good. acs, basically what you're saying is...it's ok to treat good players like s**t but who cares about the hundreds of others who committed the same act, because they suck. That's ridiculous. They should all be held to the same standard. Bonds isn't any more guilty than anyone else simply because he's BETTER than them. Yet he's being treated as if he is.



[/quote]

No what I'm saying is that no one treats the crappy players like poop because no one cares. And Bonds is the current most historic Player in the game currently who may have created that history by cheating.

Therefore he gets more poop from everyone.

If Bonds had admitted to using a small amount once then the media frenzy would be much smaller I'd assume. However, its assumed by evidence and common sense that Bonds went from tiny man to Giant Super Beast with the consistent and repetitive use of illegal steroids and hgh.

If Herges for example consistently used steroids and hgh for his whole career he would get criticized more heavily but still not nearly as much as Bonds because Bonds is a historic figure.

So what Bonds is getting may not be "fair" on a biblical/moral level is is 100% fair considering what his records mean to the game of baseball and its fans and (moronic) Sports Writers.

Bonds essentially cheated his way to the top while others cheated their way into recognition. And to the media and baseball fans Bonds' actions, although technically equal (on a case by case basis of course), are not equal in the eyes of sports morality.

Now of course who's to say Herges wouldn't have kept using if he was to become the greatest closer of all time. But the fact is that Bonds is the best hitter of all time and the public demands to know if he obtained that title fairly. All evidence points to the fact that he didn't and I'm sorry its such a cruel world for Barry Bonds but thats the fact of it, and fair or not (legally its fair, morally its debatable) thats the way it is.

Also, remember up until now that Bonds was one of few Veteran High Profile players that was linked to the Grand Jury investigation.

Giambi admitted fault (Plus he doesn't hold Bonds' record setting path) and has never been a huge media draw.
Sheffield comes off as a total idiot when he opens his mouth and again doesn't share the history that bonds shares.

I think a big problem with Bonds is that he Opens his mouth and gives the media big well rounded intelligent sounding clips. Bonds is no idiot. He sounds well educated but through his career (college included) he's been a bridge burner.

Add everything Bonds brings to the table and its 100% fair he is being treated the way he is by the media and by the fans. He is treated differently because he is different, the records are different, and the usage is different.
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Re: The Mitchell Investigation

Postby Lofunzo » Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:08 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:
I know why he's treated that way. The point is, it IS unfair. Bonds isn't anymore guilty than these other people. People hate him because he's the best. I get it, I'm just saying it's not right.


I will say its unfair if MLB treats him differently however not the media/fans.[/quote]

Why? That makes no sense. So you're basically admitting that it's not right for MLB to hold him to a different standard, but the media and fans have a right to discriminate against him?

What?[/quote]

In a court of law, you expect a judge and jury to look at everything fairly. The court of public opinion doesn't work that way. You can go on and on about how unfair that is but we really need to look in the mirror. Do we really handle exact situations the same?? Do we really look at exact situations regarding different people/players the same each and every time?? We need to look in the mirror. Each and every 1 of us. I would expect that there have been times that those of us preaching about the fact that these players all need to be treated the same have, at some time, been hypocrites of this as well.
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Re: The Mitchell Investigation

Postby Tavish » Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:27 pm

Yoda wrote:I'm still wondering how Selig still is the commish. How the hell is he still holding that position with the way this entire steroids thing have been handled?

4 consecutive years of the league setting new attendance records.
Player's salaries through the roof.
Owners making millions.
Nearing 15 years of labor peace.

Fans can complain about steroids in baseball on internet forums and talk radio all they want. Those fans are the same ones who fork over their money to go out and scream at Bonds about how he is destroying the game. Selig, the owners, and the players can all sit back and do business as usual. Baseball is going strong and showing no real signs of slowing down.
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Re: The Mitchell Investigation

Postby Yoda » Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:31 pm

Tavish wrote:
Yoda wrote:I'm still wondering how Selig still is the commish. How the hell is he still holding that position with the way this entire steroids thing have been handled?

4 consecutive years of the league setting new attendance records.
Player's salaries through the roof.
Owners making millions.
Nearing 15 years of labor peace.

Fans can complain about steroids in baseball on internet forums and talk radio all they want. Those fans are the same ones who fork over their money to go out and scream at Bonds about how he is destroying the game. Selig, the owners, and the players can all sit back and do business as usual. Baseball is going strong and showing no real signs of slowing down.


Right... so everyone sits there and blames the players meanwhile enjoying the immense success those same players brought them. Makes a lot of sense.
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Re: The Mitchell Investigation

Postby Art Vandelay » Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:35 pm

acsguitar wrote:Matt Holliday eats children if blatant Libel. He would sue and win that case even though he is a public figure. The evidence against Bonds is too strong for Libel and as a public figure he is legally able to receive that criticism.

Now if they make up lies about Bonds and Bonds can prove that they are doing it with no basis just to hurt him then sue away. however, as it stands Bonds is not getting treated unfairly for the level of public figure he is. Now if they said he is eating children he can sue.

I am a Media Com Major and got straight A's in Media Law. I'm not pulling this out of my butt.

I don't think your understanding of libel is quite as clear as you think. Firstly, 'Matt Holliday eats children' isn't blatant libel at all. In order to be considered libelous, a statement must be something that a reasonable person may consider to be true. Parody, satire, and statements so ridiculous that nobody would reasonably believe them are protected. I'm sure you're familiar with Hustler Magazine successfully defending itself against libel claims from Jerry Falwell for just this reason.

Also, opinion is protected. If, for example, a columnist writes that he thinks Bonds is a PED-using jerk whose records are tainted, he's protected from libel. Everyone, members of the media included, are allowed to give their opinions on issues of public interest.

Even if something is not an opinion, but rather a statement of fact, like in a news story, it would still have to be proven that the potentially libelous comment in question was made with actual malice, which means that proving that the statement is wrong is not enough. One would have to prove that the statement is factually incorrect as well as proving that whoever wrote it knew that it was incorrect, and that the published it anyway in an attempt to cause injury.
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Re: The Mitchell Investigation

Postby Art Vandelay » Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:40 pm

Yoda wrote:
Tavish wrote:
Yoda wrote:I'm still wondering how Selig still is the commish. How the hell is he still holding that position with the way this entire steroids thing have been handled?

4 consecutive years of the league setting new attendance records.
Player's salaries through the roof.
Owners making millions.
Nearing 15 years of labor peace.

Fans can complain about steroids in baseball on internet forums and talk radio all they want. Those fans are the same ones who fork over their money to go out and scream at Bonds about how he is destroying the game. Selig, the owners, and the players can all sit back and do business as usual. Baseball is going strong and showing no real signs of slowing down.


Right... so everyone sits there and blames the players meanwhile enjoying the immense success those same players brought them. Makes a lot of sense.


Exactly. Unfortunately, Selig answers to the owners, not the fans. And the owners are getting fat.
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