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CRISP/ ELLSBURY

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Re: CRISP/ ELLSBURY

Postby RedSoxNation04 » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:39 pm

Crisp has been a let-down since we signed him. It's that simple. He's had two years to get it together and while his defense has been great, its time to give Ellsbury a shot. He's younger, cheaper and proved this past year that he can he can play in the bigs. Obviously he will not be a .350 hitter over the course of 162 games, but I'll take my chances with Ellsbury any day over Crisp.
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Re: CRISP/ ELLSBURY

Postby Bloody Sox » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:16 pm

Steve-o wrote:
RedSoxNation04 wrote:No one in Boston doubts his defense...should have been a gold glove winner this year. What everyone is tired of are the weak ground outs to 2nd base and the pop outs to shallow center.

What makes you think Jacoby is going to be any different than Crisp?

My eyes... which after watching 600+ at-bats from Crisp over the last two years and about 150 at-bats from Ellsbury this year tell me that Ellsbury at this point in time is a better hitter than Coco. Sometimes its about a qualitative assessment than picking stats from long ago (in Coco's case) that don't really tell you anything. Maybe Coco has had some bad luck with injuries, but he's had a big enough chance to prove that he can progress into a good hitter - it just ain't happening. Plain and simple: Coco takes TERRIBLE swings at terrible pitches while Ellsbury takes very good swings, protects great with 2 strikes, and is simply better offensively.
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Re: CRISP/ ELLSBURY

Postby RedSoxNation04 » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:34 pm

Bloody Sox wrote:
Steve-o wrote:
RedSoxNation04 wrote:No one in Boston doubts his defense...should have been a gold glove winner this year. What everyone is tired of are the weak ground outs to 2nd base and the pop outs to shallow center.

What makes you think Jacoby is going to be any different than Crisp?

My eyes... which after watching 600+ at-bats from Crisp over the last two years and about 150 at-bats from Ellsbury this year tell me that Ellsbury at this point in time is a better hitter than Coco. Sometimes its about a qualitative assessment than picking stats from long ago (in Coco's case) that don't really tell you anything. Maybe Coco has had some bad luck with injuries, but he's had a big enough chance to prove that he can progress into a good hitter - it just ain't happening. Plain and simple: Coco takes TERRIBLE swings at terrible pitches while Ellsbury takes very good swings, protects great with 2 strikes, and is simply better offensively.

;-D
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Re: CRISP/ ELLSBURY

Postby kab21 » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:38 am

Steve-o wrote:
What makes you think Jacoby is going to be any different than Crisp?

Player A
.298/.360/.380 in 363 ABs as a 23 yo in AAA
.308/.387/.434 in 198 ABs as a 22 yo in AA

Player B
.360/.434/.511 in 225 ABs as a 23 yo in AAA
.301/.365/.428 in 355 ABs as a 22 yo in AA

Quick, which one is Jacoby and which one is Crisp? You want to say you like Jacoby because he's cheaper or because he came through your farm system, that's fine with me. However, if you are arguing that Jacoby a better hitter than Crisp (based on his 116 ABs in MLB), then I want to argue that point. To me, they are essentially the same guys. Maybe you get a little downgrade in defense when you move to Ellsbury and Ellsbury is certainly more of an unknown quantity.


I've brought up this same point before on other boards. Ellsbury is that seductive rookie with potential to be better than Crisp. But lots of rookies struggle and don't pan out at all. Even guys that look as good as Ellsbury.

On the flip side, I think alot of people expected Crisp to at least maintain his Cleveland numbers and now he is regressing. I think he just needs to get a fresh start somewhere else. But whether or not he gets traded is influx due the Santana trade negotiations (Twins are currently favoring an Ellsbury led package).

Regardless I don't understand the fantasy love for Ellsbury. At best he's a 3 category player that won't contribute much HR's and RBI's at his peak. So he's a SB specialist with a good BA and runs.
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Re: CRISP/ ELLSBURY

Postby thedude » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:54 am

kab21 wrote:
Steve-o wrote:
What makes you think Jacoby is going to be any different than Crisp?

Player A
.298/.360/.380 in 363 ABs as a 23 yo in AAA
.308/.387/.434 in 198 ABs as a 22 yo in AA

Player B
.360/.434/.511 in 225 ABs as a 23 yo in AAA
.301/.365/.428 in 355 ABs as a 22 yo in AA

Quick, which one is Jacoby and which one is Crisp? You want to say you like Jacoby because he's cheaper or because he came through your farm system, that's fine with me. However, if you are arguing that Jacoby a better hitter than Crisp (based on his 116 ABs in MLB), then I want to argue that point. To me, they are essentially the same guys. Maybe you get a little downgrade in defense when you move to Ellsbury and Ellsbury is certainly more of an unknown quantity.


I've brought up this same point before on other boards. Ellsbury is that seductive rookie with potential to be better than Crisp. But lots of rookies struggle and don't pan out at all. Even guys that look as good as Ellsbury.

On the flip side, I think alot of people expected Crisp to at least maintain his Cleveland numbers and now he is regressing. I think he just needs to get a fresh start somewhere else. But whether or not he gets traded is influx due the Santana trade negotiations (Twins are currently favoring an Ellsbury led package).

Regardless I don't understand the fantasy love for Ellsbury. At best he's a 3 category player that won't contribute much HR's and RBI's at his peak. So he's a SB specialist with a good BA and runs.



Three cat guys have value. So Ellsbury is not going to hit 30 homers or drive in 120. He may never be a first round pick, but he should still be a useful player.
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Re: CRISP/ ELLSBURY

Postby RedSoxNation04 » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:51 am

kab21 wrote:
Steve-o wrote:
What makes you think Jacoby is going to be any different than Crisp?

Player A
.298/.360/.380 in 363 ABs as a 23 yo in AAA
.308/.387/.434 in 198 ABs as a 22 yo in AA

Player B
.360/.434/.511 in 225 ABs as a 23 yo in AAA
.301/.365/.428 in 355 ABs as a 22 yo in AA

Quick, which one is Jacoby and which one is Crisp? You want to say you like Jacoby because he's cheaper or because he came through your farm system, that's fine with me. However, if you are arguing that Jacoby a better hitter than Crisp (based on his 116 ABs in MLB), then I want to argue that point. To me, they are essentially the same guys. Maybe you get a little downgrade in defense when you move to Ellsbury and Ellsbury is certainly more of an unknown quantity.


I've brought up this same point before on other boards. Ellsbury is that seductive rookie with potential to be better than Crisp. But lots of rookies struggle and don't pan out at all. Even guys that look as good as Ellsbury.

On the flip side, I think alot of people expected Crisp to at least maintain his Cleveland numbers and now he is regressing. I think he just needs to get a fresh start somewhere else. But whether or not he gets traded is influx due the Santana trade negotiations (Twins are currently favoring an Ellsbury led package).

Regardless I don't understand the fantasy love for Ellsbury. At best he's a 3 category player that won't contribute much HR's and RBI's at his peak. So he's a SB specialist with a good BA and runs.

Never said I loved him as a fantasy player, just said I would take him over Crisp. However, if I had enough big hitters on my team (and I play in a 12X12 H2H league, so guys like Ellsbury who contribute in R, BA, TR, SB do have some value) I would take him to round out some other non-power based categories.
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Re: CRISP/ ELLSBURY

Postby kab21 » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:07 am

RedSoxNation04 wrote:Never said I loved him as a fantasy player, just said I would take him over Crisp. However, if I had enough big hitters on my team (and I play in a 12X12 H2H league, so guys like Ellsbury who contribute in R, BA, TR, SB do have some value) I would take him to round out some other non-power based categories.


And I've never said he was fantasy garbage. There are others that have irrational expectations for Ellsbury. Especially since he's still unproven. Last night he went in the 10th round of a mock draft I did. 12 team 5x5. I guess I consider that way too high.
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Re: CRISP/ ELLSBURY

Postby RedSoxNation04 » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:36 am

10th round in a 5X5 does sound a little high, so I guess we can agree there ;-)
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Re: CRISP/ ELLSBURY

Postby Bloody Sox » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:52 pm

kab21 wrote:
RedSoxNation04 wrote:Never said I loved him as a fantasy player, just said I would take him over Crisp. However, if I had enough big hitters on my team (and I play in a 12X12 H2H league, so guys like Ellsbury who contribute in R, BA, TR, SB do have some value) I would take him to round out some other non-power based categories.

And I've never said he was fantasy garbage. There are others that have irrational expectations for Ellsbury. Especially since he's still unproven. Last night he went in the 10th round of a mock draft I did. 12 team 5x5. I guess I consider that way too high.

I'd agree that 10th round is high, given that he is a rookie... but if you project him to bat leadoff in front of Pedroia, Papi, and Manny (very reasonable assumption) and for him to hit .310 with 110 runs and 40 steals (not unreasonable as a Boston leadoff hitter), then that sounds like 10th round value to me. Again, I wouldn't draft him there because he hasn't proven himself long enough, but I can see why someone would given his success last year and how well he handles the bat (especially compared to Coco and Lugo). And the point of this thread was comparing Coco to Ellsbury... I wouldn't draft Coco in a 12 team league, but I'd certainly draft Ellsbury in the Round 13-15, given the upside potential.
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Re: CRISP/ ELLSBURY

Postby dc928 » Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:31 pm

RedSoxNation04 wrote:
talk show host wrote:COCO CRISP /JACOBY ELLSBURY

NASHVILLE, Tenn. - Coco Crisp [stats] has no intention of entering a scenario where he has to compete for the starting center field job.

That was the message Crisp’s agent, Steve Comte, relayed yesterday, coming just minutes after the Red Sox [team stats] left the Opryland Hotel and Resort without having cleared up the outfielder’s uncertain status on the team.

“Covelli understands the situation,” Comte said referring to his client by his real first name, “but being in a situation where he would be looking over his shoulder at (Jacoby) Ellsbury would be unacceptable.

“He’s a proven commodity,” Comte said. “Ellsbury filled in and did a great job, and Covelli didn’t complain. There was certainly some disappointment, but, that being said, he took the high road. But does he feel he belongs in the outfield as a backup? No way.

“Not taking anything away from Ellsbury, but do I think he’s a better player than Covelli? Absolutely not.” Boston Herald LENNY: Nothing Like a Little Team Spirit
FROM MY SITE


If Coco hadn't forgotten how to hit for most of the season he wouldn't have to be looking over his shoulder. And how is competition unacceptable? What a ridiculous quote that is from Comte...Coco plays elsewhere in '08 unless Ellsbury goes to Minnesota in a Johan deal which, personally I hope does not happen. Ellsbury should be our CF in '08.


Who does Coco think he is? He ain't hitting. If I am the Red Sox, I am dumping him and start Ellsbury. He can do all Coco does and do it better!! He better shut up and play!!
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