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Postby Transmogrifier » Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:54 pm

maioriel wrote: :-t

Let's just stop this whining about the Yank's ruining the game of baseball. All the arguments are mundane; my market isn't big enough, George has no soul and will spend whatever it takes to win, if baseball had a salary cap my team would be so much better, revenue sharing would totally help my team win blah blah blah.


Welcome to the Cafe. ;-D Let's look at your arguments.

maioriel wrote:Let's get real
-My teams market isn't big enough: You don't have a big enough market to support baseball; then your city doesnt deserve to have a team. Truth hurts kid. If you think NY has too big of a market already, then move < insert crappy small market team > to NY! Problem Solved and the game of baseball is saved...HURRAH!


This makes no sense. It isn't a matter of having a market "big enough" to support baseball--that's silly. If that is the case, NY is the only city that can support baseball, as it is the only city that has the media revenues to support a $200 million payroll.

It's a matter of fairness. With the advent of enormous television contracts, NY has an enormous, inate advantage because of its location.

Your comment about moving teams to NY is not worth addressing.

maioriel wrote:-George has no soul: hahaha whatever, he likes to win whether you like it or not, is of no concern to anyone. Get over it, plain & simple.


George should get tons of credit for pouring his revenues back into the team--but not for the revenues.

maioriel wrote:-Salary cap: Let's institute one, the only provision is there must be a 60-75 million dollar minimum or your team gets no revenue sharing for x amount of years. For a list of offending teams look here: http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball ... ?year=2003


Yup, we need a salary cap AND a salary floor. I find it despicable that George (and others) give money that goes right into the pockets of cheap owners like Selig et al.

maioriel wrote:-Revenue Sharing would help my team: blah, move your team; your market can't support an mlb team. And even if there were revenue sharing, it would be terrible if they didnt invest that money back into the team. I wonder what the Devil Rays did with their luxury tax money...hmmmm


What's with you and moving teams?

maioriel wrote:I don't want to send the message that your arguments are crap; they aren't, but there are solutions out there that small market teams will never agree to. So until their are rules in place, get off the yanks' back and start holding other people accountable besides the yankees.


The Yankees aren't ruining baseball; the rules are ruining baseball and the Yankees are the best example of what can be done in the current system. The problem is, only a few teams can do that.

maioriel wrote:Let's start holding the twins accountable for not re-signing latroy hawkins or guardado. Come on, surely you can't blame the yanks for that?! Let's hold the Red's accountable for the firesale they had last year. Let's hold the Devil Ray's accountable for a crude 19 million dollar payroll; hell they wouldnt pay travis lee 2 mil! Let's hold the expos accountable for not keeping vlad and vasquez.


Again, it's all well and good to "hold them accountable," but how can we do this when they don't have the resources--especially the EXPOS! How can you blame a team that is owned by all the other teams, who have an interest in dismantling the 'Spos?


maioriel wrote:Teams need to step up and keep their own players, and not be farm systems for other teams.
Matthew J


Again, this is great--if it were that easy! How can the Expos pay what the Angels did? The Cubs gave Hawkins a huge contract for a middle reliever. How can the Twins compete where the are playing?

One of the best examples of the flawed system is this: The Twins had to pass on Mark Prior because they knew they didn't have the resources to sign him. THey couldn't trade their pick, either, because of the rules. So they drafted Mauer--admittedly a good player, but no Prior--and the Cubs got Prior. This is patently unfair.
I'm back. Sorta.

Do not boo Johnny.
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Postby eli81k » Mon Feb 16, 2004 12:19 am

From 1995 through 2001, a total of 224 MLB postseason games were played. Five clubs whose payrolls fell in the lower half of the industry qualified for the postseason, winning a total of five games. None advanced past the Division Series. No team outside the top payroll quartile has won a World Series game during this period. The seven-year post-season record is 219-5 (a .978 winning percentage) in favor of the top two payroll quartiles.

The last two years have seen some freak results with Anahiem (15th) and Florida (21st). But now Anahiem has rejoined the ranks of baseball's big budget clubs. We'll see how this continues in the next couple of seasons. And before you pro-Stienbrenner machiavelian apes get all giddy, realize nothing much of importance in baseball's financial structure has changed in the last two years.

And in response to something mentioned in the previous post, the Twins aren't receiving any luxury tax money, and do dump all of their revenue into their payroll. Twins owner Carl Pohlad runs the team to break even. When the Twins get $4 million for local broadcast rights and the Yankees get well over $50 million, you are going to lose out on a LaTroy Hawkins even with dumping all of your revenue back into salary. The Twins increased their salary each of the two previous off-seasons.

A luxury tax is stupid. You shouldn't be penalized for having good revenue (i.e. it's not the revenue, it's the revenue sharing). The problem is the Twins get nothing for playing a game in New York. My question to all of you is why should they bother? If any team thinks they should get all of their gate and local broadcast money, then let them call up their AAA team and play 81 home games, then they deserve it.

What needs to be done is to have every team put half of their gate sales and fees from local broadcasting rights into a league pot that gets divided evenly 30-ways. The Yankees would still have the largest revenue in all of baseball, but other teams would get compensated for playing games outside of their home stadium.
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Postby Arlo » Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:23 am

Transmogrifier wrote:One of the best examples of the flawed system is this: The Twins had to pass on Mark Prior because they knew they didn't have the resources to sign him. THey couldn't trade their pick, either, because of the rules. So they drafted Mauer--admittedly a good player, but no Prior--and the Cubs got Prior. This is patently unfair.

Good point by Transmo, and I'm surprised this didn't get far more attention at the time. I think this may be a greater problem over the long run than any trades or free agent signings we've seen recently...
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Postby maioriel » Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:14 am

Transmogrifier wrote:
maioriel wrote: :-t

Let's just stop this whining about the Yank's ruining the game of baseball. All the arguments are mundane; my market isn't big enough, George has no soul and will spend whatever it takes to win, if baseball had a salary cap my team would be so much better, revenue sharing would totally help my team win blah blah blah.


Transmogrifier wrote:
Welcome to the Cafe. ;-D Let's look at your arguments.


Thanks!

maioriel wrote:Let's get real
-My teams market isn't big enough: You don't have a big enough market to support baseball; then your city doesnt deserve to have a team. Truth hurts kid. If you think NY has too big of a market already, then move < insert crappy small market team > to NY! Problem Solved and the game of baseball is saved...HURRAH!


Transmogrifier wrote:This makes no sense. It isn't a matter of having a market "big enough" to support baseball--that's silly. If that is the case, NY is the only city that can support baseball, as it is the only city that has the media revenues to support a $200 million payroll.

It's a matter of fairness. With the advent of enormous television contracts, NY has an enormous, inate advantage because of its location.

Your comment about moving teams to NY is not worth addressing.


It makes complete sense if you think about it. If teams do not generate enough revenue from their current market, attendance & tv revenue + millions of other things that go on, one of two things need to happen: Leave the city for a market that can support you or contract the team. Simple. If New York can sustain a third team, go to NY. Pick an arbitrary big city for all I care just leave your small city if your complaining about revenues. Hell, maybe you could do it the old fashioned way and just take your small business and make it into the next microsoft.


maioriel wrote:-George has no soul: hahaha whatever, he likes to win whether you like it or not, is of no concern to anyone. Get over it, plain & simple.



Transmogrifier wrote:
George should get tons of credit for pouring his revenues back into the team--but not for the revenues.


He should get all credit for building his team into a cash cow. He bought the Yankees for 10 million dollars. They are now worth almost a billion. He should get all the credit in the world for the revenues he helped generate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Steinbrenner

maioriel wrote:-Salary cap: Let's institute one, the only provision is there must be a 60-75 million dollar minimum or your team gets no revenue sharing for x amount of years. For a list of offending teams look here: http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball ... ?year=2003


Transmogrifier wrote:Yup, we need a salary cap AND a salary floor. I find it despicable that George (and others) give money that goes right into the pockets of cheap owners like Selig et al.


Great point, but technically Selig is not really an owner anymore.

maioriel wrote:-Revenue Sharing would help my team: blah, move your team; your market can't support an mlb team. And even if there were revenue sharing, it would be terrible if they didnt invest that money back into the team. I wonder what the Devil Rays did with their luxury tax money...hmmmm


Transmogrifier wrote:What's with you and moving teams?


Either move to a market where your city can sustain your team or drop out of the leauge or introduce some sort of a cap system that you and I already agree upon.

maioriel wrote:I don't want to send the message that your arguments are crap; they aren't, but there are solutions out there that small market teams will never agree to. So until their are rules in place, get off the yanks' back and start holding other people accountable besides the yankees.


Transmogrifier wrote:The Yankees aren't ruining baseball; the rules are ruining baseball and the Yankees are the best example of what can be done in the current system. The problem is, only a few teams can do that.


Bud Selig & company up top the MLB executive board is ruining baseball. Look at the All-Star game for further proof. Look at the Brewers when Selig ran them for even more proof!


maioriel wrote:Let's start holding the twins accountable for not re-signing latroy hawkins or guardado. Come on, surely you can't blame the yanks for that?! Let's hold the Red's accountable for the firesale they had last year. Let's hold the Devil Ray's accountable for a crude 19 million dollar payroll; hell they wouldnt pay travis lee 2 mil! Let's hold the expos accountable for not keeping vlad and vasquez.


Transmogrifier wrote:Again, it's all well and good to "hold them accountable," but how can we do this when they don't have the resources--especially the EXPOS! How can you blame a team that is owned by all the other teams, who have an interest in dismantling the 'Spos?


Dismantle them! They barely get a million people coming to their games on the home or road. That's horrible, that's like 12,000 people/game. We could use that talent on other teams and keep baseball from being so dilluted like the NBA.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

maioriel wrote:Teams need to step up and keep their own players, and not be farm systems for other teams.
Matthew J


Again, this is great--if it were that easy! How can the Expos pay what the Angels did? The Cubs gave Hawkins a huge contract for a middle reliever. How can the Twins compete where the are playing?

Transmogrifier wrote:One of the best examples of the flawed system is this: The Twins had to pass on Mark Prior because they knew they didn't have the resources to sign him. THey couldn't trade their pick, either, because of the rules. So they drafted Mauer--admittedly a good player, but no Prior--and the Cubs got Prior. This is patently unfair.


And the people to blame for not instituting, in my opinion, the solution to everyone's problem (Min/Max salary cap) are the people pondering something ridiculous like whether Pete Rose should be on the HOF ballot. WHo CARES! Bud had some good intentions by hypothesizing about contracting teams, but couldnt step up to the player's association. It's going to continue to be great for the big market teams, until Bob Costas is the commissioner ( and that is another can of worms to be opened and a much deeper topic ).
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Postby Erboes » Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:21 am

Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
BigW27 wrote:Here are the people to blame: Red Sox for not opening their wallets a little wider. Tom Hicks for paying the Yankees $67 million to put the league's best player in their lineup, which I'm not angry about.

"More whine with your cheese,sir?"

The record for runs in a season is 1,067 by the 1931 Yankees. It is now in jeopardy.


How about winning a game first sparky before you start setting all these records.


Maybe If you knew how to read Chauncey, you can see It says It's In jeopardy.


I've never heard of a record like this being in jeopardy before the season starts. I don't know, maybe I'm just really out of touch, but maybe we should wait until they get to, say, May, before we begin projecting such things.
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