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Fans should strike!

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Re: Fans should strike!

Postby Bloody Sox » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:28 pm

Tavish wrote:
Bloody Sox wrote:My apologies for not having time to read through the rest of this thread before responding... but while I agree that there is a competitive disadvantage for many teams, to some extent it is of those team's own doing and/or their fanbases. Why do I say this? As someone pointed out on Page 1, think of ticket prices. The reason a team like the Red Sox has such as high payroll has a LOT more to do with the fact that their fanbase is willing to spend a LOT more than other teams. It is a myth that Boston is a "large market" - the greater metro Boston area is no bigger than a lot of major metropolises (Minnesota-St.Paul comes to mind), yet they can sustain a larger payroll because their fan base pays higher ticket prices, packs the stadium every night, watches every game on TV, etc.


Boston has the second largest single-team metropolitan area in baseball behind Philly. The metro area of Boston in 2000 was 5.8 million. The Twins metro area is 2.9 million. Even the Philly market is within 125 miles of NYC, Washington DC, and Baltimore.

According to the 2006 Census, the Boston metro area had 4.45 M people, behind Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, Washington DC, Detroit, Philly, Miami, and of course, NY, LA, and Chicago. And not far ahead of San Fran and Phoenix.

I'm not arguing that there are not competitive inequities that need to be addressed by MLB. There certainly are, and they should focus on revenue drivers for teams, which are based primarily on local populations (within reasonable driving distances of stadiums as well as within reach of local TV) and how wealthy those populations are. The fact that one team can't draw as many fans or another team has "bandwagon fans" nationwide (which by the way contribute zero to the bottom line since licensing and national TV revenues do not go to bottom line of the team of interest) should not really enter the equation.
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Re: Fans should strike!

Postby CadensDad » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:41 pm

Well it's not like you hear the players union screaming this is unfair right? Afterall what other sport let's the players get so much say so in what goes on? I don't like the fact that teams like Yankees/Mets/Red Sox spend so much but they do and it wont stop. It's part of life and we should just get use to it.
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Re: Fans should strike!

Postby acsguitar » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:49 pm

I'm a yankees fan and a rockies fan. And actually seeing the rockies get to the series with their payroll and watching the yankees be mediocre (for their payroll) makes me think we need a salary cap. maybe it would force the yanks to hire some people who aren't complete tards (cough cashman)
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Re: Fans should strike!

Postby noseeum » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:55 pm

Look, it's obvious that the Yankees have the biggest market in baseball. They share it with the Mets. But when Steinbrenner bought the Yankees, the team was worthless and in a sorry state. He took a look from the outside and realized what a diamond in a rough was available. He went after Catfish Hunter. Filled the back pages with stories showing he wanted to win.

He rebuilt an obsessive fan base and created enough drama to bring the fair weather folks back to the stadium too. But he didn't stop there. He was creative enough to be the first owner to try making his own sports channel, maximizing his TV revenue. Others have now followed suit.

I'm not saying there's no advantage in NY or Boston. I am saying that many teams out there have not come even close to maximizing their market potential, and the Twins are one of the worst culprits. There are almost 3.5 million people in Minneapolis/St. Paul alone. This doesn't include the outlying areas that have nowhere to go but to the Twins for baseball.

Owners of any other business would kill for a monopoly market on 3.5 million people. "So I just need to get 40,000 out of 3.5 million -less than 1.5%- to come out to my games 81 days out of the year, and get enough of the rest excited enough to be watching my team on TV instead of coming down to the park, and I'll be swimming in cash? Plus, you'll pay for the stadium for me? And if I find talented players, I get to keep them for six years while paying them less than they're actually worth? Sign me up!"
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Re: Fans should strike!

Postby noseeum » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:58 pm

brewcrew4you wrote:They should have BOTH a salary cap and a salary floor. Any money that you don't spend under the salary floor gets put in the revenue sharing pool.

The cap could even be much higher than most teams are willing to spend, say $110 million this year (only NY, NYM, and BOS were more last year), and increase with inflation. I have no problem with the teams with more money spending it on players, but there needs to be some sort of penalty for teams that give awful contracts, and then just spend more money to cover those blemishes up.


There is a penalty. The luxury tax.
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Re: Fans should strike!

Postby Tavish » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:01 pm

Sorry I should have been more clear. By metro size I am talking about the CSMA which is is typically what is used when dealing with market size.
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Re: Fans should strike!

Postby AussieDodger » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:22 pm

brewcrew4you wrote:They should have BOTH a salary cap and a salary floor. Any money that you don't spend under the salary floor gets put in the revenue sharing pool.

The cap could even be much higher than most teams are willing to spend, say $110 million this year (only NY, NYM, and BOS were more last year), and increase with inflation. I have no problem with the teams with more money spending it on players, but there needs to be some sort of penalty for teams that give awful contracts, and then just spend more money to cover those blemishes up.


No cap.
Just floor.
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Re: Fans should strike!

Postby noseeum » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:28 pm

AussieDodger wrote:
brewcrew4you wrote:They should have BOTH a salary cap and a salary floor. Any money that you don't spend under the salary floor gets put in the revenue sharing pool.

The cap could even be much higher than most teams are willing to spend, say $110 million this year (only NY, NYM, and BOS were more last year), and increase with inflation. I have no problem with the teams with more money spending it on players, but there needs to be some sort of penalty for teams that give awful contracts, and then just spend more money to cover those blemishes up.


No cap.
Just floor.


I don't see why you should have either, but at a minimum, if you don't spend the revenue sharing dollars, you don't get to keep them.
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Re: Fans should strike!

Postby mweir145 » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:31 pm

AussieDodger wrote:
brewcrew4you wrote:They should have BOTH a salary cap and a salary floor. Any money that you don't spend under the salary floor gets put in the revenue sharing pool.

The cap could even be much higher than most teams are willing to spend, say $110 million this year (only NY, NYM, and BOS were more last year), and increase with inflation. I have no problem with the teams with more money spending it on players, but there needs to be some sort of penalty for teams that give awful contracts, and then just spend more money to cover those blemishes up.


No cap.
Just floor.

A floor won't help teams like Toronto, Baltimore, and Tampa compete with New York and Boston. Unless one of those teams has the perfect season built around home-grown prospects and a lot of luck, they won't be making the playoffs for the considerable future due to the massive financial advantage. This may be a overwhelmingly pessimistic view of the way the AL East is right now, but it's the truth. All of those teams are definitely partly to blame for their failures over the years, but to actually expect all of them to have the money to spend 150M every season doesn't make much sense, either. A salary cap would definitely provide parity, the league, however, wants no part of that, which is why this discussion is a pretty pointless one because nothing is going to change.
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Re: Fans should strike!

Postby one ton » Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:16 pm

This is definitely a huge issue, and I think it's a threat to the long-term health of the game. Even as a Red Sox fan, it turns my stomach that the Twins are going to trade away the best pitcher in the game.

One thing that hasn't come up is the flaws of the revenue sharing system. There was a great Op-Ed in the NY Times about this recently:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/03/opinion/03lewis.html

The problem is that the teams receiving payments have come to use them as a primary source of income — rather than to build winning teams. The most extreme example has been the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. In 2006, this team had a payroll of about $35 million, $42 million less than the 2006 league average. Not surprisingly, it won only 38 percent of its games and filled less than 40 percent of its seats for home games. It also collected more than $30 million in revenue-sharing transfers. This past season, the team reduced its payroll to $24 million and had about the same level of success.

The Pittsburgh Pirates and the Kansas City Royals have also received significant revenue-sharing payments but kept payrolls low. These teams may well be slowly destroying their customer base. (The Rockies were not so parsimonious. With the team receiving $16 million in 2006, it increased its payroll for the next season by around $15 million.)

The problem is that transfers are based on local revenues. Teams that receive money are encouraged to invest it in their payrolls. But if a team actually attracts fans by fielding a winning team, its revenue-sharing receipts will be reduced.


He goes on to suggest that revenue sharing be tied to attendance, so that teams have a financial incentive to field good teams.

I think a cap is a great idea, but a floor is an urgent necessity. The Yankees and Red Sox may be the big bullies on the block now, but they are also the organizations that are investing in their teams. It may seem unfair, but I think the Marlins et al do far more damage to the game than NY or Boston.
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