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Fans should strike!

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Re: Fans should strike!

Postby mweir145 » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:50 am

AussieDodger wrote:People complaining about the Yankees spending should think -
Those guys have spent over $1 billion like demented apes since 2000 and how many world series have they won?

That isn't a sound argument. How many times have they made the playoffs?
From there, it's just a crapshoot most of the time anyway. The money helps in getting there.
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Re: Fans should strike!

Postby AussieDodger » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:42 am

mweir145 wrote:
AussieDodger wrote:People complaining about the Yankees spending should think -
Those guys have spent over $1 billion like demented apes since 2000 and how many world series have they won?


That isn't a sound argument. How many times have they made the playoffs?
From there, it's just a crapshoot most of the time anyway. The money helps in getting there.


Oh yeah I totally agree Mr Weir.
Any team would be over the moon making the play-offs 7 out of 7.
I was meaning it must be eating them up having spent that much money for 0 championships. Don't they keep making a small loss?
What did Boston spend over the 86 years they didn't have one? It wouldn't have been that much more then $1½-$2 billion.
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Re: Fans should strike!

Postby KCollins1304 » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:49 am

AussieDodger wrote:
mweir145 wrote:
AussieDodger wrote:People complaining about the Yankees spending should think -
Those guys have spent over $1 billion like demented apes since 2000 and how many world series have they won?


That isn't a sound argument. How many times have they made the playoffs?
From there, it's just a crapshoot most of the time anyway. The money helps in getting there.


Oh yeah I totally agree Mr Weir.
Any team would be over the moon making the play-offs 7 out of 7.
I was meaning it must be eating them up having spent that much money for 0 championships. Don't they keep making a small loss?
What did Boston spend over the 86 years they didn't have one? It wouldn't have been that much more then $1½-$2 billion.


There losing money if you don't count the YES network, but overall they're still raking it in.
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Re: Fans should strike!

Postby Bloody Sox » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:15 am

My apologies for not having time to read through the rest of this thread before responding... but while I agree that there is a competitive disadvantage for many teams, to some extent it is of those team's own doing and/or their fanbases. Why do I say this? As someone pointed out on Page 1, think of ticket prices. The reason a team like the Red Sox has such as high payroll has a LOT more to do with the fact that their fanbase is willing to spend a LOT more than other teams. It is a myth that Boston is a "large market" - the greater metro Boston area is no bigger than a lot of major metropolises (Minnesota-St.Paul comes to mind), yet they can sustain a larger payroll because their fan base pays higher ticket prices, packs the stadium every night, watches every game on TV, etc. Isn't it a team's responsibility to market their team and make it a valuable commodity? If a team like Minnesota charged $40-80 for tickets, would they lose a ton of ticket paying fans? Of course. I went to a game in APRIL in Toronto this year and the day of the game I was able to buy $35 seats from the box office 15 rows from the field!!!! Colorado and Arizona playoff tickets were available the day before their games (until the World Series). The only three exceptionally big-markets are NY, LA, and to a lesser degree Chicago - but those three areas have to split their fans across two teams. Sorry to be blunt, but why should the Red Sox (in particular) be penalized because they have better fans? And please don't give me the "Boston is a rich part of the country" argument, because then you have to exclude the greater Oakland area, which includes San Jose and silicon valley.

Again, I agree that baseball should work to balance the playing field, but you can't DIRECTLY correlate payroll size with competitive advantage - their are a lot of variables in that equation.
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Re: Fans should strike!

Postby BronXBombers51 » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:26 am

Bloody Sox wrote:My apologies for not having time to read through the rest of this thread before responding... but while I agree that there is a competitive disadvantage for many teams, to some extent it is of those team's own doing and/or their fanbases. Why do I say this? As someone pointed out on Page 1, think of ticket prices. The reason a team like the Red Sox has such as high payroll has a LOT more to do with the fact that their fanbase is willing to spend a LOT more than other teams. It is a myth that Boston is a "large market" - the greater metro Boston area is no bigger than a lot of major metropolises (Minnesota-St.Paul comes to mind), yet they can sustain a larger payroll because their fan base pays higher ticket prices, packs the stadium every night, watches every game on TV, etc. Isn't it a team's responsibility to market their team and make it a valuable commodity? If a team like Minnesota charged $40-80 for tickets, would they lose a ton of ticket paying fans? Of course. I went to a game in APRIL in Toronto this year and the day of the game I was able to buy $35 seats from the box office 15 rows from the field!!!! Colorado and Arizona playoff tickets were available the day before their games (until the World Series). The only three exceptionally big-markets are NY, LA, and to a lesser degree Chicago - but those three areas have to split their fans across two teams. Sorry to be blunt, but why should the Red Sox (in particular) be penalized because they have better fans? And please don't give me the "Boston is a rich part of the country" argument, because then you have to exclude the greater Oakland area, which includes San Jose and silicon valley.

Again, I agree that baseball should work to balance the playing field, but you can't DIRECTLY correlate payroll size with competitive advantage - their are a lot of variables in that equation.


Better fans? The Red Sox fan base might start in the 'greater metro Boston area' but it doesn't end there. Boston has most of the entire New England area. Plus with their recent success, there are bandwagon fans all over the country. You can't compare their market size and only talk about the city of Boston.
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Re: Fans should strike!

Postby Bloody Sox » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:35 am

BronXBombers51 wrote:
Bloody Sox wrote:My apologies for not having time to read through the rest of this thread before responding... but while I agree that there is a competitive disadvantage for many teams, to some extent it is of those team's own doing and/or their fanbases. Why do I say this? As someone pointed out on Page 1, think of ticket prices. The reason a team like the Red Sox has such as high payroll has a LOT more to do with the fact that their fanbase is willing to spend a LOT more than other teams. It is a myth that Boston is a "large market" - the greater metro Boston area is no bigger than a lot of major metropolises (Minnesota-St.Paul comes to mind), yet they can sustain a larger payroll because their fan base pays higher ticket prices, packs the stadium every night, watches every game on TV, etc. Isn't it a team's responsibility to market their team and make it a valuable commodity? If a team like Minnesota charged $40-80 for tickets, would they lose a ton of ticket paying fans? Of course. I went to a game in APRIL in Toronto this year and the day of the game I was able to buy $35 seats from the box office 15 rows from the field!!!! Colorado and Arizona playoff tickets were available the day before their games (until the World Series). The only three exceptionally big-markets are NY, LA, and to a lesser degree Chicago - but those three areas have to split their fans across two teams. Sorry to be blunt, but why should the Red Sox (in particular) be penalized because they have better fans? And please don't give me the "Boston is a rich part of the country" argument, because then you have to exclude the greater Oakland area, which includes San Jose and silicon valley.

Again, I agree that baseball should work to balance the playing field, but you can't DIRECTLY correlate payroll size with competitive advantage - their are a lot of variables in that equation.


Better fans? The Red Sox fan base might start in the 'greater metro Boston area' but it doesn't end there. Boston has most of the entire New England area. Plus with their recent success, there are bandwagon fans all over the country. You can't compare their market size and only talk about the city of Boston.

I knew 'better fans' was going to be keyed on, but that's not the point. You can say the same thing about the entire state of Minnesota for the Twins, or the entire country of Canada for the Blue Jays. In terms of competitive advantage, you have to compare apples to apples, which is why I compared metropolis regions, where 95% of the ticket paying fans come from. Why do the Sox have all those "bandwagon fans"? Because they've been successful. Why do they get punished for that? There's nothing stopping other teams from becoming successful, growing their fanbase, and doing the same thing - if their ownership and fans are willing to spend money.
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Re: Fans should strike!

Postby BronXBombers51 » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:43 am

Bloody Sox wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
Bloody Sox wrote:My apologies for not having time to read through the rest of this thread before responding... but while I agree that there is a competitive disadvantage for many teams, to some extent it is of those team's own doing and/or their fanbases. Why do I say this? As someone pointed out on Page 1, think of ticket prices. The reason a team like the Red Sox has such as high payroll has a LOT more to do with the fact that their fanbase is willing to spend a LOT more than other teams. It is a myth that Boston is a "large market" - the greater metro Boston area is no bigger than a lot of major metropolises (Minnesota-St.Paul comes to mind), yet they can sustain a larger payroll because their fan base pays higher ticket prices, packs the stadium every night, watches every game on TV, etc. Isn't it a team's responsibility to market their team and make it a valuable commodity? If a team like Minnesota charged $40-80 for tickets, would they lose a ton of ticket paying fans? Of course. I went to a game in APRIL in Toronto this year and the day of the game I was able to buy $35 seats from the box office 15 rows from the field!!!! Colorado and Arizona playoff tickets were available the day before their games (until the World Series). The only three exceptionally big-markets are NY, LA, and to a lesser degree Chicago - but those three areas have to split their fans across two teams. Sorry to be blunt, but why should the Red Sox (in particular) be penalized because they have better fans? And please don't give me the "Boston is a rich part of the country" argument, because then you have to exclude the greater Oakland area, which includes San Jose and silicon valley.

Again, I agree that baseball should work to balance the playing field, but you can't DIRECTLY correlate payroll size with competitive advantage - their are a lot of variables in that equation.


Better fans? The Red Sox fan base might start in the 'greater metro Boston area' but it doesn't end there. Boston has most of the entire New England area. Plus with their recent success, there are bandwagon fans all over the country. You can't compare their market size and only talk about the city of Boston.

I knew 'better fans' was going to be keyed on, but that's not the point. You can say the same thing about the entire state of Minnesota for the Twins, or the entire country of Canada for the Blue Jays. In terms of competitive advantage, you have to compare apples to apples, which is why I compared metropolis regions, where 95% of the ticket paying fans come from. Why do the Sox have all those "bandwagon fans"? Because they've been successful. Why do they get punished for that? There's nothing stopping other teams from becoming successful, growing their fanbase, and doing the same thing - if their ownership and fans are willing to spend money.


Do you have numbers to support that 95% of Boston's ticket sales come from people in the Boston area? On the surface it sounds like BS, but maybe you do. The Red Sox do not have better fans. In fact, I'd argue they have worse fans because of the winning...just how the Yankees had worse fans when they were a dynasty. Most of the people aren't real fans, they just say they are because it's the trendy thing to do.

This 'better fans' stuff is BS. So you mean to tell me that if the Red Sox were a 75-win team instead of a 95-win team, they'd be drawing the same amount of people? Winning breeds fans...most of them frontrunners. That's why Yankee Stadium was a wasteland during the 1980s and the Mets were the team in New York.

Red Sox fans go to the ballpark because the Red Sox are good. It has nothing to do with them being better than anyone else. Again, on the whole they are worse, do to the sheer percentages of bandwagon fans.

I agree that every team has the ability to become successful....but that doesn't mean that large market teams don't have an inherent advantage over them.
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Re: Fans should strike!

Postby Tavish » Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:35 am

Bloody Sox wrote:My apologies for not having time to read through the rest of this thread before responding... but while I agree that there is a competitive disadvantage for many teams, to some extent it is of those team's own doing and/or their fanbases. Why do I say this? As someone pointed out on Page 1, think of ticket prices. The reason a team like the Red Sox has such as high payroll has a LOT more to do with the fact that their fanbase is willing to spend a LOT more than other teams. It is a myth that Boston is a "large market" - the greater metro Boston area is no bigger than a lot of major metropolises (Minnesota-St.Paul comes to mind), yet they can sustain a larger payroll because their fan base pays higher ticket prices, packs the stadium every night, watches every game on TV, etc.


Boston has the second largest single-team metropolitan area in baseball behind Philly. The metro area of Boston in 2000 was 5.8 million. The Twins metro area is 2.9 million. Even the Philly market is within 125 miles of NYC, Washington DC, and Baltimore.
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Re: Fans should strike!

Postby brewcrew4you » Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:49 am

They should have BOTH a salary cap and a salary floor. Any money that you don't spend under the salary floor gets put in the revenue sharing pool.

The cap could even be much higher than most teams are willing to spend, say $110 million this year (only NY, NYM, and BOS were more last year), and increase with inflation. I have no problem with the teams with more money spending it on players, but there needs to be some sort of penalty for teams that give awful contracts, and then just spend more money to cover those blemishes up.
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Re: Fans should strike!

Postby Bloody Sox » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:20 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:Do you have numbers to support that 95% of Boston's ticket sales come from people in the Boston area? On the surface it sounds like BS, but maybe you do. The Red Sox do not have better fans. In fact, I'd argue they have worse fans because of the winning...just how the Yankees had worse fans when they were a dynasty. Most of the people aren't real fans, they just say they are because it's the trendy thing to do.

No - I don't have numbers. Its just common sense. The majority of ticket sales are going to come from those who live within driving distance of the stadiums. You think people fly in from all over the country to come home to watch a Sox game, especially when they can go to one for cheaper in whatever city they happen to live in?

BronXBombers51 wrote:This 'better fans' stuff is BS. So you mean to tell me that if the Red Sox were a 75-win team instead of a 95-win team, they'd be drawing the same amount of people? Winning breeds fans...most of them frontrunners. That's why Yankee Stadium was a wasteland during the 1980s and the Mets were the team in New York.

I'm not arguing that the Sox have better fans - stop redirecting the argument. We're talking about competitive balance here and you are in fact making my point. The Red Sox (just like the Yanks in the 80s) used to have trouble drawing fans. It wasn't until new ownership came in and spent a ton of money to improve the ballpark and take the initiative to market the team that they started drawing a lot more fans and interest, and that led to more income, which led to a higher payroll.

BronXBombers51 wrote:Red Sox fans go to the ballpark because the Red Sox are good. It has nothing to do with them being better than anyone else. Again, on the whole they are worse, do to the sheer percentages of bandwagon fans.

Again, I'm not arguing about who has better fans - I'm arguing about competitive balance.

BronXBombers51 wrote:I agree that every team has the ability to become successful....but that doesn't mean that large market teams don't have an inherent advantage over them.

I agree completely, but too many people cry about small market disadvantages when that is only part of the equation. If ownership of some of these so-called small market teams spent more money to put a better product on the field and into marketing, they might draw more interest, which in turn would generate more revenues, which in turn would allow for higher payrolls.
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