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Any Lawyers in Here??

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Re: Any Lawyers in Here?

Postby StlSluggers » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:35 am

DaQ wrote:2.) I didn't know LimeWire could even do this, so I wasn't knowingly breaking the law.

I was trying not to be the first to post it, but you know the saying... "Ignorantia legis neminem excusat."

Might as well drop that line now.
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Re: Any Lawyers in Here?

Postby StlSluggers » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:42 am

BTW, is anyone else chuckling at this:

DaQ wrote:I think I may be over-worrying about it.

This from the same guy that could turn an innocent instant message into a 23-page thread in less than 2 hours. :-b
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Re: Any Lawyers in Here?

Postby Mookie4ever » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:45 am

StlSluggers wrote:
DaQ wrote:2.) I didn't know LimeWire could even do this, so I wasn't knowingly breaking the law.

I was trying not to be the first to post it, but you know the saying... "Ignorantia legis neminem excusat."

Might as well drop that line now.


I don't think that's what he's saying. He's not saying that he did not know that d/ling was illegal, I believe that he's saying that he did not know that limewire lets others d/l his songs even when he doesn't have the program open.

Couple of things - first I'm sure that limewire makes you acknowledge this fact when you install it and you have to enable the file sharing feature. And regardless of this you are responsible for your laptop. But that's only half of the problem b/c you also have d/led songs that you did not pay for (unless you were only sharing songs that you have paid for).
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Re: Any Lawyers in Here?

Postby Tavish » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:59 am

DaQ wrote:As for the letter, it didn't say "Dear DaQ." What I think happens is the law firm sees it came from my school, then my school does the tracking down and that's how they found me. The case number was in the millions, but I don't know if that matters.

Right, as of right now the RIAA most likely doesn't even know who you are. What they do know is that an IP address from your school was connected to a P2P network and had files under copyright by their clients available for download. They simply send a letter to the school saying xxx.xxx.xx.xxx IP address is violating the DMCA and give them the settlement letter. The school then forwards that letter on to you (case #1 where the school has decided not to protect you).

If the RIAA does decide to take you to court they can then subpoena the school to get your private information, whatever information is connected with the IP address (case #2 where the school will decide not to protect you). They can then file an actual suit. Any settlement before that is basically turning yourself in and saying "You got me".

As some of you said, I think they send out thousands of these, but my dad will still write to them just in case they pluck mine for further investigation later on. Hopefully if the RIAA was looking at mine they go lightly.

I hope there isn't a real problem, and my parents, like MWeir, told me not to worry about it, since my parents know:
1.) Many (417 apparently were sent out on 11/15) get sent out, and probably more before that.
2.) I didn't know LimeWire could even do this, so I wasn't knowingly breaking the law.


I don't think there is any documented case of the RIAA "going lightly" once they know a) who the person is and b) that they have all but admitted wrong-doing. And that is what your dad contacting the RIAA's lawfirm will do.

I won't go into my spiel about why violating copyright law via P2P music sharing programs is wrong, but what I will say is that now that it has gotten to this point I would urge your father to do everything possible to protect you. Most people in the tech world have a nice little nickname for the RIAA, they are the copyright mafiaa. They certainly have a bunch of scare tactics in their bag of tricks and that may be exactly what this is. But they also have, at least right now, have the laws backing them up and they have no problem suing grandmothers, 9 year old children, and even dead people in an effort to make money for the record labels. Don't take them lightly and don't think telling them that it is all just a misunderstanding will make them go away.
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Re: Any Lawyers in Here?

Postby DaQ » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:01 am

Lofunzo wrote:
DaQ wrote:
Tavish wrote:I would highly suggest to your dad to get in touch with someone from the EFF. They can give him a great deal of information about the legal ramifications. The RIAA has brought legal action against roughly 7000 people a year since they began their investigations. Do not take it lightly and do not expect the "I didn't know" excuse to make it go away.


My dad is going to write a letter to whoever is suing to the law firm that said they could sue (they work for the RIAA). He'll explain to them the situation and see what they do after that.

As for the letter, it didn't say "Dear DaQ." What I think happens is the law firm sees it came from my school, then my school does the tracking down and that's how they found me. The case number was in the millions, but I don't know if that matters.

As some of you said, I think they send out thousands of these, but my dad will still write to them just in case they pluck mine for further investigation later on. Hopefully if the RIAA was looking at mine they go lightly.

I hope there isn't a real problem, and my parents, like MWeir, told me not to worry about it, since my parents know:
1.) Many (417 apparently were sent out on 11/15) get sent out, and probably more before that.
2.) I didn't know LimeWire could even do this, so I wasn't knowingly breaking the law.

Also, as JT suggested, I removed the software yesterday afternoon.


What exactly do you mean by that bolded statement??


As I mentioned, I'm not very tech-savvy when it comes to things like this. By the bolded statement, I didn't know that when ou turn LimeWire "off", it is still "on" and the IP address shares files with other computers (hence I totally took it out of the computer yesterday). Again, I didn't install it into the laptop, so I don't have much of a background of what LimeWire does.
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Re: Any Lawyers in Here?

Postby Tavish » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:02 am

Mookie4ever wrote:Couple of things - first I'm sure that limewire makes you acknowledge this fact when you install it and you have to enable the file sharing feature. And regardless of this you are responsible for your laptop. But that's only half of the problem b/c you also have d/led songs that you did not pay for (unless you were only sharing songs that you have paid for).


Even sharing songs that you have paid for is copyright infringement. During the RIAA case in Minnesota, it was ruled that even if the RIAA couldn't prove anyone downloaded the song from the person's computer that the act of "making it available for download" was an infringement.
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Re: Any Lawyers in Here?

Postby StlSluggers » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:15 am

Tavish wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:Couple of things - first I'm sure that limewire makes you acknowledge this fact when you install it and you have to enable the file sharing feature. And regardless of this you are responsible for your laptop. But that's only half of the problem b/c you also have d/led songs that you did not pay for (unless you were only sharing songs that you have paid for).


Even sharing songs that you have paid for is copyright infringement. During the RIAA case in Minnesota, it was ruled that even if the RIAA couldn't prove anyone downloaded the song from the person's computer that the act of "making it available for download" was an infringement.

Years and years ago, a guy in Cali get hold of my SSN. I found out quickly, and I was able to get a $1,500 credit card cancelled while it was en route to his mailing address. I then notified the police that this man had stolen my identity and was about to receive an ill-gotten card. All they had to do was wait for him to pick it up. Naturally, having a criminal hand-delivered to the police was too easy. They declined to apprehend him because I hadn't actually lost anything. They weren't positive they'd even be able to prosecute him.

But the RIAA can sue someone for putting a song out for download even if it's never downloaded.

I love our legal system. :-S
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Re: Any Lawyers in Here?

Postby Mookie4ever » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:26 am

Tavish wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:Couple of things - first I'm sure that limewire makes you acknowledge this fact when you install it and you have to enable the file sharing feature. And regardless of this you are responsible for your laptop. But that's only half of the problem b/c you also have d/led songs that you did not pay for (unless you were only sharing songs that you have paid for).


Even sharing songs that you have paid for is copyright infringement. During the RIAA case in Minnesota, it was ruled that even if the RIAA couldn't prove anyone downloaded the song from the person's computer that the act of "making it available for download" was an infringement.


Of course sharing songs that you paid for is copyright infringement. The only exception is when you make a copy of music that you have legally purchased for your own use. But then that's not sharing is it.

If all of the music on his computer was legit bought and paid for and he can show that he's a real dumbass who did not know that limewire would share his music then he may be able to say that he was a mule and have a defence that way. But I'm guessing that his music was illegal and he has a duty of care over his own property and he is responsible for what happens with is computer so I don't see him having any defence to this.
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Re: Any Lawyers in Here?

Postby Mookie4ever » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:31 am

StlSluggers wrote:
Tavish wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:Couple of things - first I'm sure that limewire makes you acknowledge this fact when you install it and you have to enable the file sharing feature. And regardless of this you are responsible for your laptop. But that's only half of the problem b/c you also have d/led songs that you did not pay for (unless you were only sharing songs that you have paid for).


Even sharing songs that you have paid for is copyright infringement. During the RIAA case in Minnesota, it was ruled that even if the RIAA couldn't prove anyone downloaded the song from the person's computer that the act of "making it available for download" was an infringement.

Years and years ago, a guy in Cali get hold of my SSN. I found out quickly, and I was able to get a $1,500 credit card cancelled while it was en route to his mailing address. I then notified the police that this man had stolen my identity and was about to receive an ill-gotten card. All they had to do was wait for him to pick it up. Naturally, having a criminal hand-delivered to the police was too easy. They declined to apprehend him because I hadn't actually lost anything. They weren't positive they'd even be able to prosecute him.

But the RIAA can sue someone for putting a song out for download even if it's never downloaded.

I love our legal system. :-S


If you didn't protect patents and trademarks why would anyone ever make anything?

Why would a company spend millions on R&D for new drugs, why would a movie company spend hundreds of millions on filming a movie if others could copy your work for free?
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Re: Any Lawyers in Here?

Postby StlSluggers » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:39 am

Mookie4ever wrote:
StlSluggers wrote:
Tavish wrote:Even sharing songs that you have paid for is copyright infringement. During the RIAA case in Minnesota, it was ruled that even if the RIAA couldn't prove anyone downloaded the song from the person's computer that the act of "making it available for download" was an infringement.

Years and years ago, a guy in Cali get hold of my SSN. I found out quickly, and I was able to get a $1,500 credit card cancelled while it was en route to his mailing address. I then notified the police that this man had stolen my identity and was about to receive an ill-gotten card. All they had to do was wait for him to pick it up. Naturally, having a criminal hand-delivered to the police was too easy. They declined to apprehend him because I hadn't actually lost anything. They weren't positive they'd even be able to prosecute him.

But the RIAA can sue someone for putting a song out for download even if it's never downloaded.

I love our legal system. :-S


If you didn't protect patents and trademarks why would anyone ever make anything?

Why would a company spend millions on R&D for new drugs, why would a movie company spend hundreds of millions on filming a movie if others could copy your work for free?

I do believe you missed my point. A person who stole my identity can't be prosecuted until I actually lose something, but if a song is available for download, the RIAA has the right to damages even if they can't prove they ever lost anything.

A situation where a single event could cost someone thousands of dollars isn't afforded the same legal protection as an event that costs a company $0.99 per event. Seems like things are slightly askew there.
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