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Re: sicko

Postby Art Vandelay » Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:46 pm

StlSluggers wrote:
Madison wrote:
StlSluggers wrote:I believe that that, contrary to other posts in this thread, basic health care should be a right.


Curious, so I'd love to hear your opinion on why you believe that. :-)

It's just the right thing to do. I understand that the right thing is not always feasible, but I don't like that, either.

Art Vandelay wrote:
StlSluggers wrote:Have you considered how much we "save" by not offering free preventive care? Sure, getting preventive care will cut down on emergency room visits/costs, but what if the number of people utilizing preventative care are 10, 20, or even 100 times larger the number of people using the emergency room? That difference (future preventative care less current emergency room visitors) is a saving we would give up if those people were to receive free preventative care.

I'm no expert on health care, but I've had the opportunity to interview and have lengthy discussions with quite a few people who are in the past year, and every one of them has said that the money spent on emergency care for people who could have avoided emergency care through preventative care is far more than it would cost to provide simple preventative care for everyone. I'm sure there are arguments and statistics that state otherwise, but just about all of the experts I've talked to are in agreement.

I think that we'll end up with some sort of free care for many people one day, so I hope those statistics are right. I wouldn't be surprised if they were wrong, though. As an analyst, I see daily examples of middle managers blowing away the bad data in order to focus on something that will make themselves look good. I'm a little cynical as a result.

Yeah, I have no way of knowing if the statistics and studies were skewed in some way, but I believe the people I've spoken with. These weren't just middle-managers at some insurance or health care company, they were US Senators, presidents of health care providers, a former governor and physician, etc.
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Re: sicko

Postby RugbyD » Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:01 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:Yeah, I have no way of knowing if the statistics and studies were skewed in some way, but I believe the people I've spoken with. These weren't just middle-managers at some insurance or health care company, they were US Senators, presidents of health care providers, a former governor and physician, etc.

All you're missing are conflicting economists!
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Re: sicko

Postby Yoda » Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:17 pm

IllinoisBandit wrote:Socialized medicine will not work in the US because our government is already much too large and inefficient as it is.
It's a simple fact, the more the federal government gets involved in something the worse it gets.


I am not disagreeing with you in that our government is too large and inefficient but that is no excuse not to improve our medical system. It is clearly broken and while I don't have a solution, there has to be a better way.
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Re: sicko

Postby mweir145 » Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:20 pm

Where's Mookie when you need him? He's usually the one defending the Canadian health care system.

IMO, having experienced both, the Canadian one is better, though there are some definite problems associated with it, problems that Moore doesn't really talk about at all in Sicko.
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Re: sicko

Postby Yoda » Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:34 pm

mweir145 wrote:Where's Mookie when you need him? He's usually the one defending the Canadian health care system.

IMO, having experienced both, the Canadian one is better, though there are some definite problems associated with it, problems that Moore doesn't really talk about at all in Sicko.


What are the problems?
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Re: sicko

Postby mweir145 » Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:41 pm

Yoda wrote:
mweir145 wrote:Where's Mookie when you need him? He's usually the one defending the Canadian health care system.

IMO, having experienced both, the Canadian one is better, though there are some definite problems associated with it, problems that Moore doesn't really talk about at all in Sicko.


What are the problems?

For example...a family member of mine had to wait almost a year for an organ transplant a few years back. It wasn't serious enough a condition that it was necessary to have it immediately, but if it was, they would have likely went to the US for treatment.
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Re: sicko

Postby Yoda » Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:47 pm

mweir145 wrote:
Yoda wrote:
mweir145 wrote:Where's Mookie when you need him? He's usually the one defending the Canadian health care system.

IMO, having experienced both, the Canadian one is better, though there are some definite problems associated with it, problems that Moore doesn't really talk about at all in Sicko.


What are the problems?

For example...a family member of mine had to wait almost a year for an organ transplant a few years back. It wasn't serious enough a condition that it was necessary to have it immediately, but if it was, they would have likely went to the US for treatment.


Interesting... but if it was a serious condition, then would they have been slow in getting the treatment available or would they have worked faster?
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Re: sicko

Postby mweir145 » Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:54 pm

Yoda wrote:Interesting... but if it was a serious condition, then would they have been slow in getting the treatment available or would they have worked faster?

It's a waiting list. However, I believe there is some kind of leniency for more serious cases (ie. getting moved somewhat up the list in front of people who don't need it as badly), but don't quote me on that.

If you needed something like major transplant surgery immeditately done within a week or two though, it would be virtually impossible to get it done in Canada, atleast from what I know about the system there.
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Re: sicko

Postby Madison » Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:44 pm

StlSluggers wrote:
Madison wrote:
StlSluggers wrote:I believe that that, contrary to other posts in this thread, basic health care should be a right.


Curious, so I'd love to hear your opinion on why you believe that. :-)

It's just the right thing to do. I understand that the right thing is not always feasible, but I don't like that, either.

So because you think it's the "right" thing to do, that it should be bestowed upon us at birth?

Again, just curious. :-)

I actually had some thoughts about "rights" the other day and how some rights are earned, not given. Even considered writing up a big old piece about it all, but just haven't had time. Anyway, it really got me thinking about rights and stuff, so I'm just curious as to what you're thinking is all :-) , as I see healthcare as something someone earns (if they want it), not something they have already earned simply by being born on certain soil.
Yes doctor, I am sick.
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Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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Re: sicko

Postby Yoda » Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:57 pm

Madison wrote:It's just the right thing to do. I understand that the right thing is not always feasible, but I don't like that, either.

So because you think it's the "right" thing to do, that it should be bestowed upon us at birth?

Again, just curious. :-)

I actually had some thoughts about "rights" the other day and how some rights are earned, not given. Even considered writing up a big old piece about it all, but just haven't had time. Anyway, it really got me thinking about rights and stuff, so I'm just curious as to what you're thinking is all :-) , as I see healthcare as something someone earns (if they want it), not something they have already earned simply by being born on certain soil.


You certainly have an excellent point as does Rugby and anyone else who view medical care as a privilege not a right.

I am just curious though if you would still believe that if someone close to you in your family is in a serious medical condition but couldn't afford treatment and something horrible happens.

I just think that minimum health care should be available somehow, somewhere and also allow the privileged to seek additional care if needed.
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