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Re: sicko

Postby Madison » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:41 pm

RugbyD wrote:My point was that even people who have universal insurance in Canada and other socialized countries have nothing in the way of a guarantee of care because of govt rationing.


Help me out, I know you know this stuff. I thought the problem with healthcare in Canada was due to people abusing the system and going to the hospital for every little sneeze or sniffle. So wouldn't their problem be due to a "lack" of rationing? Or am I mistaking something somewhere? :-)
Yes doctor, I am sick.
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Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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Re: sicko

Postby Yoda » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:43 pm

RugbyD wrote:Border crossing is far from being an exclusive purview of the rich. My point was that even people who have universal insurance in Canada and other socialized countries have nothing in the way of a guarantee of care because of govt rationing.


I guess my point is that I can see more people from US crossing the border to get medical attention than foreigners coming to US because they can't get treatment in their own country.

I personally know at least 3 people who went to foreign countries for dental and medical treatments because they can't afford it here. These are everyday people who pay taxes and you couldn't tell that they didn't have insurance.

If you have any personal experience then I'd like to hear it. Not some heresy or something you read in a newspaper or something. Because the media does an excellent job of disguising the truth.
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Re: sicko

Postby RugbyD » Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:01 pm

Madison wrote:
RugbyD wrote:My point was that even people who have universal insurance in Canada and other socialized countries have nothing in the way of a guarantee of care because of govt rationing.


Help me out, I know you know this stuff. I thought the problem with healthcare in Canada was due to people abusing the system and going to the hospital for every little sneeze or sniffle. So wouldn't their problem be due to a "lack" of rationing? Or am I mistaking something somewhere? :-)

Some truth, but there's more to it than that. People going to the hospital for every little thing is an issue here as well, typically with the poor and uneducated who may or may not be insured. In Canada it could be a problem, especially in the past when private care was illegal (only recently changed) because they had no other option. But in the general sense, yes, when something is "free" people will use more of it because it is "free" (heavy emphasis on the quotes), which will unduly burden the system and piss many $$ away, thereby limiting the $$ available for legitimately needed care.
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Re: sicko

Postby RugbyD » Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:22 pm

Yoda wrote:
RugbyD wrote:Border crossing is far from being an exclusive purview of the rich. My point was that even people who have universal insurance in Canada and other socialized countries have nothing in the way of a guarantee of care because of govt rationing.


I guess my point is that I can see more people from US crossing the border to get medical attention than foreigners coming to US because they can't get treatment in their own country.

I personally know at least 3 people who went to foreign countries for dental and medical treatments because they can't afford it here. These are everyday people who pay taxes and you couldn't tell that they didn't have insurance.

If you have any personal experience then I'd like to hear it. Not some heresy or something you read in a newspaper or something. Because the media does an excellent job of disguising the truth.

I'm not privvy to granular data on inflows and outflows and for what procedures. I'm not sure such a data set exists, but by piling up enough anecdotes is evident that it happens plenty in both directions and for various reasons.

Did these people you know selectively not have insurance like Madison? What options had they looked into, if any? How necessary were the procedures, both in an absolute sense and relative to other options?

St. Jopesh's in Bellingham, WA has no shortage of Canadian patients who turn to them as a last resort due to rationing.
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Re: sicko

Postby Yoda » Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:23 pm

RugbyD wrote:I'm not privvy to granular data on inflows and outflows and for what procedures. I'm not sure such a data set exists, but by piling up enough anecdotes is evident that it happens plenty in both directions and for various reasons.

Did these people you know selectively not have insurance like Madison? What options had they looked into, if any? How necessary were the procedures, both in an absolute sense and relative to other options?

St. Jopesh's in Bellingham, WA has no shortage of Canadian patients who turn to them as a last resort due to rationing.


Rugby, I respect you and your opinon. However, if one day for whatever unfortunate reason you or your loved ones couldn't afford insurance in this country and became deathly ill, how would you feel? Would you be ok with the fact that even though there are more than enough hospitals and doctors in this country but you couldn't get treatment because you couldn't afford the medical bills? It could really happen to anyone. Even people with money.
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Re: sicko

Postby Madison » Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:17 pm

RugbyD wrote:
Madison wrote:
RugbyD wrote:My point was that even people who have universal insurance in Canada and other socialized countries have nothing in the way of a guarantee of care because of govt rationing.


Help me out, I know you know this stuff. I thought the problem with healthcare in Canada was due to people abusing the system and going to the hospital for every little sneeze or sniffle. So wouldn't their problem be due to a "lack" of rationing? Or am I mistaking something somewhere? :-)

Some truth, but there's more to it than that. People going to the hospital for every little thing is an issue here as well, typically with the poor and uneducated who may or may not be insured. In Canada it could be a problem, especially in the past when private care was illegal (only recently changed) because they had no other option. But in the general sense, yes, when something is "free" people will use more of it because it is "free" (heavy emphasis on the quotes), which will unduly burden the system and piss many $$ away, thereby limiting the $$ available for legitimately needed care.


Thanks! ;-D Seems we're seeing the same thing, just saying it different. Cool. :-)
Yes doctor, I am sick.
Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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Re: sicko

Postby RugbyD » Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:20 pm

Yoda wrote:
RugbyD wrote:I'm not privvy to granular data on inflows and outflows and for what procedures. I'm not sure such a data set exists, but by piling up enough anecdotes is evident that it happens plenty in both directions and for various reasons.

Did these people you know selectively not have insurance like Madison? What options had they looked into, if any? How necessary were the procedures, both in an absolute sense and relative to other options?

St. Jopesh's in Bellingham, WA has no shortage of Canadian patients who turn to them as a last resort due to rationing.


Rugby, I respect you and your opinon. However, if one day for whatever unfortunate reason you or your loved ones couldn't afford insurance in this country and became deathly ill, how would you feel? Would you be ok with the fact that even though there are more than enough hospitals and doctors in this country but you couldn't get treatment because you couldn't afford the medical bills? It could really happen to anyone. Even people with money.

Believe me, I have considered this and for me it comes down the the fact that I do not consider healthcare to be a right. I fail to see how somebody's gripper in Tuscaloosa should in any way be my responsibility outside of voluntary relationships I have entered into with that person in the form of us happening to be in the same pool of private, voluntary insurance. This having been said, I am not in practice opposed to some sort of safety net, but such a saftey net should in no way provide the means for people to continuously attempt to cheat death, especially death as a result of their own choices. I had two GPs kick off when I was young due to lung cancer, but the simple fact is that they brought it on themselves from years of chain-smoking and I see no reason why your GPs should have been expected to shoulder their load.

I reserve rights as those things due to people by the nature of their existence. Rights are intangible and have always existed since man was rational. They cannot be created, only recognized for what they are and then protected from coercive forces. Healthcare is an ephemeral social construct, not a naturally occurring right.
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Re: sicko

Postby Madison » Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:58 pm

RugbyD wrote:I do not consider healthcare to be a right.


Agreed! ;-D ;-D

Self-responsibility to take care of things like that. Amazing concept, huh? :-B
Yes doctor, I am sick.
Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
Madison
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Re: sicko

Postby AcidRock23 » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:20 pm

I don't think that the problem would be solved by the 'single payer' notion as much as it could be controlled by price controls which would reduce the need for evaluation of costs and devoting health care resources to negotiating and renegotiating prices of stuff. If a bedpan costs $3.75, it should cost $3.75 or maybe get some sort of agreement for a 'reasonable' markup to allow some hospital 'profits' without having insured customers of emergency rooms supporting uninsured customers through ridiculous fees.

I think that the government is well placed to enact some type of 'management' of the system which really gets absurd when you look at it closely. Then insurance companies would be compelled to look for profits in underwriting which is where they should be finding it, charging for risk, instead of by trying to audit bills they way they currently do. If the cost of services could be reasonably agreed upon, things would move through the system a lot more smoothly. I suspect that this would be easy to negotiate as most insurance companies likely have REAMS of information that would be easy to compile. Whether or not agreement could be reached would be up to consumers and their represntatives in our government, IMHO....

I did not see Sicko as MrsAcidRock works for a health insurance company although she has agreed we should check it out on video.

This would also, of course, benefit uninsured people by allowing them to have prices set according to value, instead of being based on how much money they can squeeze out of you.
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Re: sicko

Postby IllinoisBandit » Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:36 am

Socialized medicine will not work in the US because our government is already much too large and inefficient as it is.
It's a simple fact, the more the federal government gets involved in something the worse it gets.

Do we really want more disasters like no child left behind, social security, welfare, and FEMA?

Socialized medicine in this country would be an absolute disaster. If anything the government needs to get OUT of health care. People seem to forget that the increasingly heavy hand of government on health care has been a major factor in its decline over the past 30 years, and seem to think that if we give them even more control it will get better. I tend to differ.


And seriously people, lots of people get free health care all the time in America. You call for an ambulance, get treated, and then never pay the bill. Poor people do this all the time. Now if you need a transplant or major surgery this obviously won't work (like another poster said, this is not a right, but a privilege), but if you need emergency care it can always be had for free.
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