sicko - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to General Talk

sicko

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

sicko

Postby Yoda » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:27 pm

Did anyone watch this? I'm neither republican nor democrat. I have watched a lot of Michael Moore's films and while I enjoy them, I also know that there are two sides to every story. So I don't take them too seriously. That being said, I was really surprised to find out how well socialized medical care works in other countries. Reasons why I don't think it would work in the US:
1. Capitalism. Our foundation is built on someone getting rich at the expense of another. Insurance companies are too rich and have too much power. Also, medical malpractice suits unnecessarily drive up the cost of insurance as well.
2. Our government is too strong with too much power.

Anyone agree? Disagree?
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
Yoda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 21344
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 15th green...

Re: sicko

Postby RugbyD » Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:03 pm

Socialized medicine = rationing. That's how they keep costs down, by simply refusing to spend money on medical care.

You'll find horror stories from all types of systems. In my view the general problem with healthcare is the 3rd-party payer system.

Do a little research on TennCare if you have time. It's hilarious.

Infant mortality and life expectancy measures that socialists always trumpet are subjective and misleading at best, wholly dishonest at worst. If anyone can't find the critiques I can psot references when I have time later.
TennCare rocks!!!!
RugbyD
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe Ranker
Posts: 5591
Joined: 7 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: punting small dogs and being surly

Re: sicko

Postby RugbyD » Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:16 pm

More specifically to your concerns:

Yoda wrote:1. Capitalism. Our foundation is built on someone getting rich at the expense of another. Insurance companies are too rich and have too much power. Also, medical malpractice suits unnecessarily drive up the cost of insurance as well.

Capitalism is not zero-sum as your first sentence suggests. It is a system of voluntary action where people are not forced into any transaction. If a transaction wasn't of percieved value, one or both parties would not enter into it. This of course doesn't prevent people from making poor decisions but the key is that nobody is forcing their hand.

Agree on malpractice suits, but that is just one of several issues.

Re: insurance companies, the capitalist solution to this is more competition. We would expect that the plethora of insurance companies would be providing plenty of competition for each other and in a sense they do, but the govt places limits on how much competition there is by not allowing insurance to be provided across state lines (legal abuse of Commerce Clause! Arrgghhhh!!!). Removing that would be a welcome first step.

2. Our government is too strong with too much power.

Root of nearly all probelms in every country, but that's just me.
TennCare rocks!!!!
RugbyD
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe Ranker
Posts: 5591
Joined: 7 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: punting small dogs and being surly

Re: sicko

Postby Madison » Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:57 pm

Dunno about healthcare really, as it's not one of my strong suits or anything I look at. When decent insurance for a family of three is $800+ per month, I know the system is screwed up and don't bother going any deeper as it's not worth my time. In the last 9 years, I've had one cold that I saw a doctor to get a prescription for, and my son has had one emergency room visit. Total cost for both combined, about $1,500, and paid in cash. Actual service given? I talked to one doctor and he prescribed an antibiotic. My son's visit had a doctor look at his wrist and take X-rays. $1,500 for two consults and a few X-rays? Absurd. However, insurance for all that time would have been $86,400. So healthcare is screwed up beyond belief and I don't bother looking at it too deep because it would drive me nuts.

Yoda wrote:2. Our government is too strong with too much power.


Disagree, but that's a whole totally different can of worms, so I'll leave it at that.
Yes doctor, I am sick.
Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
Madison
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
ExecutiveEditorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerPick 3 ChampionMatchup Meltdown SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 53856
(Past Year: 1)
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Taking Souls...

Re: sicko

Postby Big Pimpin » Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:37 pm

Yoda wrote:2. Our government is too strong with too much power.


"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people." B-)


In any case, I can see some great benefits to going to a single-payer system for health care. Not only can you save boatloads in administrative expenses at the carrier level (somewhere between 15%-40% depending on group size compared to somewhere in the 4-8% range for government programs like Medicare and Medicaid) there's also solid research showing a ton of wasted administrative dollars at the provider level (think a small doctor's office that has to deal with boatloads of different forms, claims adjudication systems, utilization management systems, fee schedules, etc.). Plus you've a bunch of inefficiency in the market that you could potentially squeeze if you had one single entity running the whole system. There are definitely benefits.

There are certainly several challenges to the idea though. One, the carrier community has a very strong lobby, so pushing something like this through would be difficult from the get go. Two, you've got to keep the employer money in the market. You don't want all of the employer dollars going away or you're going to have to raise taxes through the roof. Somehow (payroll tax?) you have to keep them involved, it is absolutely essential. Third, you've got to keep the entity from becoming an engorged bureaucracy, which would be a definitely challenge in it's own right, as government agencies are wont to go down that path. Lastly, there's got to be some mechanism that rewards continued research as well as cutting edge and innovative treatments, technology, and delivery systems. Without the carriers to push some of these agendas, it's very possible that the market would grow very stagnant, which benefits no one.

Anyway, that's my long-winded take on it. There are definitely benefits but you'd have to figure out how to control the potentially damaging aspects of it as well. There is no doubt that the system as it currently stands is messed up though, but at this point I think anything we do is basically a meaningless tweak. We pretty much need a massive overhaul of some kind, at the very least something that is going to make a huge impact on the market as a while.
Big Pimpin
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
EditorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerGraphics ExpertMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeWeb SupporterMatchup Meltdown ChampionPick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 13710
(Past Year: 4)
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Building a metric. And being ignorable and stupid.

Re: sicko

Postby thedude » Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:12 pm

If you want to learn about socialized medicine:

http://www.amatecon.com/etext/dosm/dosm-toc.html
"I do not think baseball of today is any better than it was 30 years ago... I still think Radbourne is the greatest of the pitchers." John Sullivan 1914-Old athletes never change.
thedude
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 8413
(Past Year: 4)
Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: The Good Life

Re: sicko

Postby Yoda » Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:49 pm

I guess the biggest thing that bothers me is that US citizens are going across the border and/or traveling overseas to get medical care. I know a few people who simply do not have medical insurance for whatever reason who have done it. How do you guys feel about that? Our own citizens can't afford to go get medical care in their own country. As I said, I'm not leaning towards either direction but if one day I can't afford insurance for whatever reason, then I am not looking forward to going overseas to get medical attention.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
Yoda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 21344
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 15th green...

Re: sicko

Postby RugbyD » Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:45 pm

Yoda wrote:I guess the biggest thing that bothers me is that US citizens are going across the border and/or traveling overseas to get medical care. I know a few people who simply do not have medical insurance for whatever reason who have done it. How do you guys feel about that? Our own citizens can't afford to go get medical care in their own country. As I said, I'm not leaning towards either direction but if one day I can't afford insurance for whatever reason, then I am not looking forward to going overseas to get medical attention.

Canadians, among others, come here all the time for care that their govt wont pay for or can't provide in a reasonable amount of time. It's rationing, plain and simple.
TennCare rocks!!!!
RugbyD
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe Ranker
Posts: 5591
Joined: 7 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: punting small dogs and being surly

Re: sicko

Postby Yoda » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:02 pm

RugbyD wrote:
Yoda wrote:I guess the biggest thing that bothers me is that US citizens are going across the border and/or traveling overseas to get medical care. I know a few people who simply do not have medical insurance for whatever reason who have done it. How do you guys feel about that? Our own citizens can't afford to go get medical care in their own country. As I said, I'm not leaning towards either direction but if one day I can't afford insurance for whatever reason, then I am not looking forward to going overseas to get medical attention.

Canadians, among others, come here all the time for care that their govt wont pay for or can't provide in a reasonable amount of time. It's rationing, plain and simple.


Well, you are talking about people with money who can afford to come to US to pay $1000s for expedited treatment. If you have enough money then you don't even need insurance really even though it is a good idea to have it.

I'm talking about middle to lower class people who might not have insurance for whatever reasons and then needing medical attention.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
Yoda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 21344
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 15th green...

Re: sicko

Postby RugbyD » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:29 pm

Yoda wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
Yoda wrote:I guess the biggest thing that bothers me is that US citizens are going across the border and/or traveling overseas to get medical care. I know a few people who simply do not have medical insurance for whatever reason who have done it. How do you guys feel about that? Our own citizens can't afford to go get medical care in their own country. As I said, I'm not leaning towards either direction but if one day I can't afford insurance for whatever reason, then I am not looking forward to going overseas to get medical attention.

Canadians, among others, come here all the time for care that their govt wont pay for or can't provide in a reasonable amount of time. It's rationing, plain and simple.


Well, you are talking about people with money who can afford to come to US to pay $1000s for expedited treatment. If you have enough money then you don't even need insurance really even though it is a good idea to have it.

I'm talking about middle to lower class people who might not have insurance for whatever reasons and then needing medical attention.

Border crossing is far from being an exclusive purview of the rich. My point was that even people who have universal insurance in Canada and other socialized countries have nothing in the way of a guarantee of care because of govt rationing.
TennCare rocks!!!!
RugbyD
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe Ranker
Posts: 5591
Joined: 7 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: punting small dogs and being surly

Next

Return to General Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: janineop2, joiingds, mistyif4 and 7 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Tuesday, Jul. 29
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

LA Angels at Baltimore
(7:05 pm)
Seattle at Cleveland
(7:05 pm)
Chi White Sox at Detroit
(7:08 pm)
Milwaukee at Tampa Bay
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Philadelphia at NY Mets
(7:10 pm)
Washington at Miami
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Arizona at Cincinnati
(7:10 pm)
Toronto at Boston
(7:10 pm)
Colorado at Chi Cubs
(8:05 pm)
NY Yankees at Texas
(8:05 pm)
Oakland at Houston
(8:10 pm)
Minnesota at Kansas City
(8:10 pm)
Atlanta at LA Dodgers
(10:10 pm)
St. Louis at San Diego
(10:10 pm)
Pittsburgh at San Francisco
(10:15 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact