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Greatest players

Postby greg.simonster » Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:06 am

Hey guys.

I'm new to these boards and am looking for some input as to who the best of the best at each position is...

I'm talking since the beginning, and mostly looking at total careers, however if a player had a particularly great season or 2 or 3 (like Maris 61 in 61 or Gagne in 03 or Earl Webb hitting 67 doubles in 1931) we certainly can name those guys too.

The purpose for this exercise is I am playing a simulated baseball game and am trying to put together a league of 24 fairly evenly matched teams featuring the greatest of all time.

The positions that are obviously a little tougher to fill are 2B,SS,3B and C.

Pitching is tough too as if each team has a 5 man rotation that would require 120 pitchers...

Anyway hoping to get some input and spark some interest.

Thanks
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Re: Greatest players

Postby Tavish » Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:52 pm

Here is my lists somewhat in order. Its based more on overall career without having many short peak or current players. Certain positions I tend to be more defensive minded so they wouldn't be the exact same for a simulation league which typically put more weight to the offensive side everywhere. 20 is pretty deep but here you go:

C
Johnny Bench
Buck Ewing
Mickey Cochrane
Ivan Rodriguez
Yogi Berra
Mike Piazza
Roy Campanella
Josh Gibson
Gary Carter
Bill Dickey
Carlton Fisk
Ted Simmons
Gabby Hartnett
Biz Mackay
Louis Loftin
Thurman Munson
Ray Schalk
Bill Freehan
Roger Bresnahan
Jimmie Archer

1B:
Lou Gehrig
Jimmie Foxx
Jeff Bagwell
Hank Greenberg
George Sisler
Frank Thomas
Mark McGwire
Johnny Mize
Albert Pujols
Dick Allen
Willie McCovey
Dan Brouthers
Harmon Killebrew
Cap Anson
Eddie Murray
Rafeal Palmerio
Roger Connor
Don Mattingly
Bill Terry
Orlando Cepeda

2B
Rogers Hornsby
Eddie Collins
Joe Morgan
Nap Lajoie
Jackie Robinson
Craig Biggio
Rod Carew
Roberto Alomar
Ryne Sandberg
Charlie Gehringer
Jeff Kent
Joe Gordon
Larry Doyle
Frankie Frisch
Bobby Grich
Tony Lazerri
Nellie Fox
Cupid Childs
Johnny Evers
Red Schoendienst

SS
Honus Wagner
Alexander Rodriguez
Cal Ripken
Arky Vaughan
Barry Larkin
Ernie Banks
John Lloyd
Derek Jeter
Robin Yount
Ozzie Smith
Luke Applilng
Joe Cronin
George Davis
Babe Dahlen
Joe Sewell
Rabbit Maranville
Lou Boudreau
Alan Trammell
Miguel Tejada
Luis Aparicio

3B
Mike Schmidt
George Brett
Eddie Mathews
Pie Traynor
Wade Boggs
Brooks Robinson
Frank Baker
Ron Santo
Ken Boyer
Scott Rolen
George Kell
Chipper Jones
Jimmy Collins
Paul Molitor
Stan Hack
Bill Madlock
Darrell Evans
Ray Danridge
Matt Williams
Graig Nettles

RF
Babe Ruth
Hank Aaron
Frank Robinson
Mel Ott
Al Kaline
Roberto Clemente
Sam Crawford
Tony Gywnn
Reggie Jackson
Dave Winfield
Paul Waner
Vladimir Guerrero
Gary Sheffield
Sam Rice
Pete Rose
Harry Heilmann
Sam Rice
Ichiro Suzuki
Tony Oliva
Sammy Sosa

CF
Ty Cobb
Mickey Mantle
Willie Mays
Tris Speaker
Joe DiMaggio
Oscar Charleston
Ken Griffey Jr
Duke Snider
Billy Hamilton
Richie Ashburn
Cool Papa Bell
Jim Edmonds
Kirby Puckett
Andruw Jones
Paul Hines
Larry Doby
Fred Lynn
Dale Murphy
Hugh Duffy
Bernie Williams

LF
Barry Bonds
Stan Musial
Ted Williams
Joe Jackson
Rickey Henderson
Billy Williams
Al Simmons
Carl Yasztrzemski
Albert Belle
Ralph Kiner
Willie Stargell
Tim Raines
Manny Ramirez
Ed Delahanty
Zack Wheat
Goose Goslin
Jim Rice
Jesse Burkett
Duffy Lewis
Fred Clarke

I'll do pitchers later.
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Re: Greatest players

Postby greg.simonster » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:18 am

Thanks! That is a good list.

Defense is indeed important in this league.
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Re: Greatest players

Postby hwiggen » Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:10 am

That's an excellent list and I agree with most of the #1s.
Just a couple things, though:
I'm shocked to see Mantle ahead of Mays-I don't think it's really even close, Mays was better.
And Barry Bonds doesn't belong at the top of any list. He probably would have been a HOFer without the roids and HGH but he certainly wouldn't have been in the same class as Musial, Williams, Aaron or Frank Robinson. I think he would have been lucky to be comparable to Clemente.
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Re: Greatest players

Postby Tavish » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:35 am

hwiggen wrote:That's an excellent list and I agree with most of the #1s.
Just a couple things, though:
I'm shocked to see Mantle ahead of Mays-I don't think it's really even close, Mays was better.
And Barry Bonds doesn't belong at the top of any list. He probably would have been a HOFer without the roids and HGH but he certainly wouldn't have been in the same class as Musial, Williams, Aaron or Frank Robinson. I think he would have been lucky to be comparable to Clemente.


I think the Mays vs Mantle is much closer than you are making it out to be. Mays had an advantage in durability and base stealing, Mantle was either equal or better everywhere else. 1956-1957 Mantle is in the same discussion for most dominating stretch with 1920s Ruth, the 2000-2004 Bonds, 1924-1925 Hornsby, and 1910-1913 Cobb.

I definitely will pass on the Bonds/HGH debate, but he very easily could have won 5 MVP awards by the time he was 30. He was far and away the best player of the 1990s and had close statistical comparison to guys like Mays and Snider when he was 30. For a simulation league that doesn't take any of the "outside baseball" things into consideration, the level he elevated to his game to as he reached his late 30s and early 40s makes him a fairly easy pick as the greatest at the position.
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Re: Greatest players

Postby Pogotheostrich » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:46 am

Mantle had the higher peak but Mays had the durability. It all depends what is more important to you. I tend to lean towards higher peak myself.
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Re: Greatest players

Postby KCollins1304 » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:14 am

I always wonder how much better Mantle could have been had he not torn up his knee. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Mantle was one of the fastest players in the game before he torn up his knee on that freaking drainage pipe. It also didn't help that Mantle was a huge alcoholic.
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Re: Greatest players

Postby WharfRat » Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:03 am

KCollins1304 wrote:I always wonder how much better Mantle could have been had he not torn up his knee. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Mantle was one of the fastest players in the game before he torn up his knee on that freaking drainage pipe. It also didn't help that Mantle was a huge alcoholic.


I've read that as well re: Mantle's speed. He was some kind of physically gifted. It's remarkable that between the freak injury and the abuse he rendered upon himself, he's still among the top ten (arguably) of all time. Just astounding.
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Re: Greatest players

Postby mariposaskyman » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:08 pm

You might want to take a look at the lists at http://www.baseballevaluation.com. They have all-time best player and pitcher rankings, plus yearly and career player grades and other stuff. Kinda interesting and it might help.
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Re: Greatest players

Postby hwiggen » Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:35 pm

That's a pretty interesting site. The top hitters careers is pretty close to my way of thinking. Mantle is rated more close to my way of thinking than what many others have posted here but I was suprised to see Mel Ott rated so high. And it's impossible for me, personally, not to take steroid/hgh use into account when having this discussion so Bonds at number two might be right on paper but not in my reality.
I was really suprised by the pitching list, though. So many recent and current pitchers in the top twenty. And again, the probable steroid user(s) on the list is a problem for me.
Maybe recent pitchers are more highly rated because there's so much offense nowdays. I would argue that there are so many more teams now that it's not just pitching that's diluted but also hitting; so the best hitters AND pitchers look better. Of course, then the argument could be made that there's so many foriegn players today that the talent really is not diluted...
Taking that a step further, you could argue that a lot of top talent, several decades ago, never even pursued professional baseball becuase they could make more money doing something else.
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