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This makes me mad

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Re: This makes me mad

Postby Omaha Red Sox » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:24 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:For you who are saying that tell kids Just Say No or whatever you want to tell them does no good, are you serious? This hasn't worked at all? I beg to differ. There are millions of people in this country alone who have chosen not to abuse drugs because of these programs, because their parents told them that drugs will ruin you. I experimented like a lot of people have, but I stopped before it got out of hand for me, because I was educated, like most kids in this country are, about what these drugs will do to you.

So let's not say that educating people on why they shouldn't use drugs hasn't worked. It hasn't worked for everyone, of course, but that's why there are laws in place.



Who is saying that? Point to one person who has said that.

We should teach our kids that drugs are bad, tobacco is bad and alcohol should be used only in moderation if at all. Whether we should lock up people who partake is the topic.


Coppermine wrote:By haven't we established that simply telling people "this is wrong because you'll screw up your life" has no effect whatsoever?
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Re: This makes me mad

Postby Art Vandelay » Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:57 pm

Omaha Red Sox wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:Are those of you who are against this also against bars calling taxis so their patrons don't have to drive home drunk? Or, for a more apt comparison, against publicly funded 'safe-ride' programs that they have in many cities, especially around colleges?

I really don't think a single person is going to say, "Well, I wasn't ever going to do heroin when I thought I'd have to do it in my own house, but now that there is a room downtown that I can go to...pass me the needle." This won't create more drug users, it will create fewer drug users in alleys and parks.


I disagree. By telling someone that this is wrong because you'll screw up your life and hurt people, oh, but there's a place down the street where you can use it if you really want to.

Drinking can ruin your life. Smoking can ruin your life. Gambling can ruin your life. Eating McDonalds can ruin your life. Having sex can ruin your life. People shouldn't be told "x is bad, don't do it." They should be told why X is bad, and allowed to make their own informed decisions.

Omaha Red Sox wrote:It's either wrong and should not be allowed, or it's ok.

I agree. Where I think we'll differ is on what's wrong and should not be allowed.
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Re: This makes me mad

Postby Art Vandelay » Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:03 am

Snakes Gould wrote:
Madison wrote:Also, it's not a good comparison, as one can get a ticket while being drunk in a bar. Public intoxication. They give those tickets out down here, and I've seen them handed out many, many times. Even had to take the breathalyzer myself while sitting in a bar on more than one occasion. And that's partaking in something that's legal 8-o ! This whole story is for something that's illegal! And they are shielding these idiots from being arrested. A HUGE difference in the two things, and not comparable.


this is what im saying...

sure i made a stretch earlier, maybe too far, which i guess i retract, but i still stand by the thoughts behind it. if we condone and basically encourage drug use, what other laws can we suggest breaking too? speeding is a good example, sure going 70 in a 65 is against the law but not always punishable but where does it end? 73?75?80?


It ends when someone becomes a risk to those around them. Which is where most laws should end, or begin, rather. Someone should be allowed to drink/drug/smoke themselves to death, but if they put other people at risk because of their behavior, they should be stopped. The room in the original article does not put anyone else at risk. On the contrary, it lowers the risk to others.
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Re: This makes me mad

Postby Art Vandelay » Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:09 am

Snakes Gould wrote:until recreational drug use is allowed by law in the US, then im against it. whether it should or shouldnt be isnt what im discussing here. the fact remains that it is. and if it continues to be, then we cant do things like that that assist criminals.

So you would support any law that was put into effect, no matter what? I'm glad there's not more people that share that mindset, I'd be frightened if that were the case. The people that make the laws are no less likely to be currupt than the people posting in this threat.
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Re: This makes me mad

Postby Snakes Gould » Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:16 am

Art Vandelay wrote:
Snakes Gould wrote:until recreational drug use is allowed by law in the US, then im against it. whether it should or shouldnt be isnt what im discussing here. the fact remains that it is. and if it continues to be, then we cant do things like that that assist criminals.

So you would support any law that was put into effect, no matter what? I'm glad there's not more people that share that mindset, I'd be frightened if that were the case. The people that make the laws are no less likely to be currupt than the people posting in this threat.


no of course not. this is just one instance. if the united states passed recreational drug use as being legal, then tax dollars would go toward setting up everything up and then dealing with the consequences that come with it. if using heroin was legal, then i could understand these rooms being set up for users, but if it is against the law to begin with, thats the reason i am against it. whether i agree with why it is against the law is another thing.

how many people are really shooting up in random alleys and abanded warehouses anyway? im sure most users are experienced enough to know how to shootup and i doubt most are forced to do outside of their homes, or homes of their friends.
Last edited by Snakes Gould on Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: This makes me mad

Postby Omaha Red Sox » Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:18 am

Art Vandelay wrote:Drinking can ruin your life. Smoking can ruin your life. Gambling can ruin your life. Eating McDonalds can ruin your life. Having sex can ruin your life. People shouldn't be told "x is bad, don't do it." They should be told why X is bad, and allowed to make their own informed decisions.


I'm sure we've discussed this before, but there is a huge difference between the effects of alcohol, smoking, McDonalds, sex compared to drugs. I agree that excessive or irresponsible use of those first four can certainly ruin your life, but there are far more people who enjoy those things responsibly and/or in moderation than there are who use drugs. Especially drugs that require a needle. The only drug that I have seen used in moderation or with a degree of responsibility is weed.

There is not a fraction of people who enjoy alcohol in moderation, there are millions.
There is not a fraction of people who enjoy smoking in moderation, there are millions.
There is not a fraction of people who enjoy McDonalds in moderation, there are millions.
There is not a fraction of people who enjoy sex responsibly, there are millions.

This cannot be said about the type of drug discussed here.

I enjoy a couple beers or a glass of wine on occasion. I smoke a pipe on occasion. I don't eat McDonalds, but in the same mold I occasionally enjoy the more unhealthy options out there. I'm married and enjoy an active sex life. All these things are easily done in moderation and/or responsibly. I would be incapable of adding the use of a drug via a needle and keep the life that I enjoy. There is a reason why there are countless programs and rehabilitation options out there. Because it's not like alcohol, smoking, fast food, or sex. Our bodies are incapable of not becoming dependant on such drugs. And because of this it's outlawed.

If we're comparing drugs to alcohol, smoking, fast food, and sex, we can compare it to murder. An argument can be made that certain people deserve to be killed. Does that mean we should allowed to commit murder, as long as it's an informed decision? Of course not. I know that's a stretch, but so is comparing heroin to a cheeseburger. I know some will say it's never ok to kill another human, but some could argue that it's never ok to smoke or drink either. I disagree with both.
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Re: This makes me mad

Postby CheeseBeger » Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:21 am

Snakes Gould wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:
Snakes Gould wrote:until recreational drug use is allowed by law in the US, then im against it. whether it should or shouldnt be isnt what im discussing here. the fact remains that it is. and if it continues to be, then we cant do things like that that assist criminals.

So you would support any law that was put into effect, no matter what? I'm glad there's not more people that share that mindset, I'd be frightened if that were the case. The people that make the laws are no less likely to be currupt than the people posting in this threat.


how many people are realling shooting up in random alleys and abanded warehouses anyway? im sure most users are experienced enough to know how to shootup and i doubt most are forced to do outside of their homes, or homes of their friends.


The article stated how the majority of San Frans IV drug users are homeless men. Who must do it cheaply and not "at home with friends." Which means mostly in random alleys and abandoned warehouses. The equals lots of dirty needles, needle sharing, HIV/Hep C.

The people going to these clinics are not middle class drug experimenters, they are destitute and homeless addicts who are dangerously on the streets.
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Re: This makes me mad

Postby Omaha Red Sox » Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:39 am

CheeseBeger wrote:The article stated how the majority of San Frans IV drug users are homeless men. Who must do it cheaply and not "at home with friends." Which means mostly in random alleys and abandoned warehouses. The equals lots of dirty needles, needle sharing, HIV/Hep C.

The people going to these clinics are not middle class drug experimenters, they are destitute and homeless addicts who are dangerously on the streets.


These men are likely homeless because of the decisions they've made in regards to these drugs. They've made their bed, but instead of letting them sleep in it, we've decided to just make it more comfortable? How is that constructive thinking at all? "This is wrong, but if you're going to do it, go here."

Why don't we keep telling people it's wrong to kill someone, but if they want to do it anyway, provide them a place to pickup a gun for a couple hours? And if the argument that these addicts aren't hurting other people will be repeated, tell that to the millions of spouses, kids, and other victims that share their lives with these people.
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Re: This makes me mad

Postby Snakes Gould » Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:02 pm

Omaha Red Sox wrote:
CheeseBeger wrote:The article stated how the majority of San Frans IV drug users are homeless men. Who must do it cheaply and not "at home with friends." Which means mostly in random alleys and abandoned warehouses. The equals lots of dirty needles, needle sharing, HIV/Hep C.

The people going to these clinics are not middle class drug experimenters, they are destitute and homeless addicts who are dangerously on the streets.


These men are likely homeless because of the decisions they've made in regards to these drugs. They've made their bed, but instead of letting them sleep in it, we've decided to just make it more comfortable? How is that constructive thinking at all? "This is wrong, but if you're going to do it, go here."

Why don't we keep telling people it's wrong to kill someone, but if they want to do it anyway, provide them a place to pickup a gun for a couple hours? And if the argument that these addicts aren't hurting other people will be repeated, tell that to the millions of spouses, kids, and other victims that share their lives with these people.
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couldnt have said it better myself.
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Re: This makes me mad

Postby Art Vandelay » Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:34 pm

Omaha Red Sox wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:Drinking can ruin your life. Smoking can ruin your life. Gambling can ruin your life. Eating McDonalds can ruin your life. Having sex can ruin your life. People shouldn't be told "x is bad, don't do it." They should be told why X is bad, and allowed to make their own informed decisions.


I'm sure we've discussed this before, but there is a huge difference between the effects of alcohol, smoking, McDonalds, sex compared to drugs. I agree that excessive or irresponsible use of those first four can certainly ruin your life, but there are far more people who enjoy those things responsibly and/or in moderation than there are who use drugs. Especially drugs that require a needle. The only drug that I have seen used in moderation or with a degree of responsibility is weed.

There is not a fraction of people who enjoy alcohol in moderation, there are millions.
There is not a fraction of people who enjoy smoking in moderation, there are millions.
There is not a fraction of people who enjoy McDonalds in moderation, there are millions.
There is not a fraction of people who enjoy sex responsibly, there are millions.

This cannot be said about the type of drug discussed here.

I enjoy a couple beers or a glass of wine on occasion. I smoke a pipe on occasion. I don't eat McDonalds, but in the same mold I occasionally enjoy the more unhealthy options out there. I'm married and enjoy an active sex life. All these things are easily done in moderation and/or responsibly. I would be incapable of adding the use of a drug via a needle and keep the life that I enjoy. There is a reason why there are countless programs and rehabilitation options out there. Because it's not like alcohol, smoking, fast food, or sex. Our bodies are incapable of not becoming dependant on such drugs. And because of this it's outlawed.

If we're comparing drugs to alcohol, smoking, fast food, and sex, we can compare it to murder. An argument can be made that certain people deserve to be killed. Does that mean we should allowed to commit murder, as long as it's an informed decision? Of course not. I know that's a stretch, but so is comparing heroin to a cheeseburger. I know some will say it's never ok to kill another human, but some could argue that it's never ok to smoke or drink either. I disagree with both.


That was a lazy comparison by me. I wasn't trying to compare illicit drug use to drinking/smoking/eating poorly/etc, though I realize that that's exactly what I did. The point I intended to make is that people are allowed to make irresponsible, dangerous, unhealthy choices all the time about what they do with their own body, but as long as the government is able to make money off of it, it's ok. Apparently, our freedom of choice ends when the government isn't taxing the substance that we choose.
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