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This is good for baseball?

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Re: This is good for baseball?

Postby bleach168 » Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:01 am

That's just sad. I find both teams very exciting to watch and would pay to see the games even though I'm not a hometown fan of either of them.
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Re: This is good for baseball?

Postby Tavish » Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:30 am

TheA'sFatLeadoffMan wrote:Bad for baseball, because if the Red Sox don't make it to the WS the ratings for the WS are royally "eff'd in the a".

I don't see how it would be bad for baseball. It would be bad for Fox/ESPN/etc but they can cry me a river. I'm sure they could fill the programming void of not having the Sox or Yankees in the Series by spending the time talking about what will happen this offseason with the Sox and Yankees. As much as it will upset Fox to be forced to acknowledge that players like Sizemore, Holliday, Webb, or Sabathia exists, it could actually help the MLB do something they completely suck at. Marketing the game outside of the soap opera bubble that is Northeast baseball.
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Re: This is good for baseball?

Postby thedude » Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:32 am

The Cow wrote:A big reason why teams like Colorado and Arizona tickets are easier to come by is that Denver and Phoenix are much smaller cities than Boston. Read fewer people. A city of 1 million people has a smaller ticket base than a city of 10 million. Thats one reason that often gets overlooked. Its easy to sell out when you have a huge fan base due in large part to population.

The Cow



That is why it made sense, back in the day, when NYC had 3 teams and Boston had 2. That of course cannot happen now because of territorial rights.
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Re: This is good for baseball?

Postby The G.O.A.T. » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:11 am

Also remember all you fan of teams with over a 100 years of history and built in fanbases the DBacks are only 9 years old and quite a few fans are still upset over Gonzo being gone. They'll come around, but it will take time.
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Re: This is good for baseball?

Postby TheA'sFatLeadoffMan » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:56 am

Tavish wrote:
TheA'sFatLeadoffMan wrote:Bad for baseball, because if the Red Sox don't make it to the WS the ratings for the WS are royally "eff'd in the a".

I don't see how it would be bad for baseball. It would be bad for Fox/ESPN/etc but they can cry me a river. I'm sure they could fill the programming void of not having the Sox or Yankees in the Series by spending the time talking about what will happen this offseason with the Sox and Yankees. As much as it will upset Fox to be forced to acknowledge that players like Sizemore, Holliday, Webb, or Sabathia exists, it could actually help the MLB do something they completely suck at. Marketing the game outside of the soap opera bubble that is Northeast baseball.



It sucks for baseball because as you said they don't do anything to promote players outside the major media markets, esp. the west coast, and with fewer viewers, less new fans. If you can't get people to watch your championship series, how do you expect to recruit new fans?
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Re: This is good for baseball?

Postby ocicat » Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:20 am

The Cow wrote:A big reason why teams like Colorado and Arizona tickets are easier to come by is that Denver and Phoenix are much smaller cities than Boston. Read fewer people. A city of 1 million people has a smaller ticket base than a city of 10 million. Thats one reason that often gets overlooked. Its easy to sell out when you have a huge fan base due in large part to population.

The Cow


From U.S. Census 2000:

Rank Metropolitan Area, Population [City - Population (rank)]:
7 Boston--Worcester--Lawrence, MA--NH--ME--CT, 5,819,100 [Boston - 589,141(20)]
14 Phoenix--Mesa, AZ, 3,251,876 [Phoenix - 1,321,045 (6)]
16 Cleveland--Akron, OH, 2,945,831 [Cleveland - 478,434 (33)]
19 Denver--Boulder--Greeley, CO, 2,581,506 [Denver - 554,636 (25)]



Info for the rest of the League...

AL West
2 Los Angeles--Riverside--Orange County, CA, 16,373,645 [Anaheim - 328,014 (56)]
5 San Francisco--Oakland--San Jose, CA, 7,039,362 [Oakland - 399,484 (42)]
9 Dallas--Fort Worth, TX, 5,221,801 [Arlington - 332,969 (54)]
13 Seattle--Tacoma--Bremerton, WA, 3,554,760 [Seattle - 563,374 (24)]

AL Central
3 Chicago--Gary--Kenosha, IL--IN--WI, 9,157,540 [Chicago - 2,896,016 (3)]
8 Detroit--Ann Arbor--Flint, MI, 5,456,428 [Detroit - 951,270 (10)]
15 Minneapolis--St. Paul, MN--WI, 2,968,806 [Minneapolis - 382,618 (46)]
16 Cleveland--Akron, OH, 2,945,831 [Cleveland - 478,434 (33)]
26 Kansas City, MO--KS, 1,776,062 [Kansas City - 441,545 (36)]

AL East
1 New York--Northern New Jersey--Long Island, NY--NJ--CT--PA, 21,199,865 [New York - 8,008,278 (1)]
4 Washington--Baltimore, DC--MD--VA--WV, 7,608,070 [Baltimore - 651,154 (17)]
7 Boston--Worcester--Lawrence, MA--NH--ME--CT, 5,819,100 [Boston - 589,141(20)]
21 Tampa--St. Petersburg--Clearwater, FL, 2,395,997 [Tampa - 303,447 (58)]

NL West
2 Los Angeles--Riverside--Orange County, CA, 16,373,645 [Los Angeles - 3,694,820 (2)]
5 San Francisco--Oakland--San Jose, CA, 7,039,362 [San Francisco - 776,733 (13)]
14 Phoenix--Mesa, AZ, 3,251,876 [Phoenix - 1,321,045 (6)]
17 San Diego, CA, 2,813,833 [San Diego - 1,223,400 (7)]
19 Denver--Boulder--Greeley, CO, 2,581,506 [Denver - 554,636 (25)]

NL Central
3 Chicago--Gary--Kenosha, IL--IN--WI, 9,157,540 [Chicago - 2,896,016 (3)]
10 Houston--Galveston--Brazoria, TX, 4,669,571 [Houston - 1,953,631 (4)]
18 St. Louis, MO--IL, 2,603,607 [St. Louis - 348,189 (50)]
22 Pittsburgh, PA, 2,358,695 [Pittsburgh - 334,563 (53)]
24 Cincinnati--Hamilton, OH--KY--IN, 1,979,202 [Cincinnati - 331,285 (55)]
27 Milwaukee--Racine, WI, 1,689,572 [Milwaukee - 596,974 (19)]

NL East
1 New York--Northern New Jersey--Long Island, NY--NJ--CT--PA, 21,199,865 [New York - 8,008,278 (1)]
4 Washington--Baltimore, DC--MD--VA--WV, 7,608,070 [Washington - 572,059 (21)]
6 Philadelphia--Wilmington--Atlantic City, PA--NJ--DE--MD, 6,188,463 [Philadelphia - 1,517,550 (5)]
11 Atlanta, GA, 4,112,198 [Atlanta - 416,474 (40)]
12 Miami--Fort Lauderdale, FL, 3,876,380 [Miami - 362,470 (48)]


Top metro areas without MLB team:
20 San Juan--Caguas--Arecibo, PR, 2,450,292
23 Portland--Salem, OR--WA, 2,265,223
25 Sacramento--Yolo, CA, 1,796,857
28 Orlando, FL, 1,644,561
29 Indianapolis, IN, 1,607,486


Also, I realize raw population data and media market figures are not necessarily the same. Also some teams (Yankees, Red Sox) have a nationwide fanbase (thanks, ESPN). Just thought I'd throw the numbers out there.
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Re: This is good for baseball?

Postby Tavish » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:37 am

TheA'sFatLeadoffMan wrote:It sucks for baseball because as you said they don't do anything to promote players outside the major media markets, esp. the west coast, and with fewer viewers, less new fans. If you can't get people to watch your championship series, how do you expect to recruit new fans?


Baseball will get a ton of new fans if teams other than the Yankees and Red Sox are in the World Series. Those two teams are not going to draw many new fans to the game anymore, especially outside of that region. The ratings will certainly be down for the Series but that will be in large part because those two major markets won't have as much interest in the series. But the people not watching in New York will still be watching next year, they are already fans of their team.

What you will get is renewed interest in the smaller markets that are involved. People who would have no interest in watching the Series if it was BoSox vs Mets. I'm sure many of the viewers in say Phoenix would watch the D-Backs in the Series and then next year pay no attention when the team is 15 games out at the Break, but there will be many who stick around and become new fans. Just looking at the raw attendance figures shows how much it helps when the Series makes it to different towns.

Attendance figures for the last 4 World Series opponents the year before, year of and year after their appearance in the Fall Classic per game (in thousands)

Florida 10.0 - 16.2 - 22.1
NYY - 43.3 - 42.8 - 47.8
StL - 35.9 - 37.6 - 43.6
Bos - 33.6 - 35.0 - 35.2
ChSx - 24.4 -28.9 - 36.5
Hou - 38.1 -34.5 - 37.3
Det - 25.3 - 32.0 - 37.6
StL - 43.6 - 42.6 - 43.9

Without checking I think the last St. Louis number is the only one that you could point to a new stadium having an affect on the attendance. When you look at the teams that hadn't made the Series in a long time there is about a 50% increase in attendance from before their Series appearance to the year after and over 100% increase in the Marlins case. Even the teams that were playing to near capacity crowds every night still showed increase. This is only talking about game attendance, but I think it is safe to assume that people watching the games at home would increase as well.

People are already (over) exposed to the BoSox and Yankees thanks to the media and MLB's complete lack of effort in marketing the game. For people outside of the Northeast bubble to have that sort of exposure is really the best and likely only way for those teams to grow their fan base.
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Re: This is good for baseball?

Postby StlSluggers » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:56 am

Tavish wrote:People are already (over) exposed to the BoSox and Yankees thanks to the media and MLB's complete lack of effort in marketing the game. For people outside of the Northeast bubble to have that sort of exposure is really the best and likely only way for those teams to grow their fan base.

WR, is that you? :-b
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Re: This is good for baseball?

Postby Brandaddy » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:30 pm

The Cow wrote:A big reason why teams like Colorado and Arizona tickets are easier to come by is that Denver and Phoenix are much smaller cities than Boston. Read fewer people. A city of 1 million people has a smaller ticket base than a city of 10 million. Thats one reason that often gets overlooked. Its easy to sell out when you have a huge fan base due in large part to population.

The Cow


I think another reason is the ticket prices. I am not exactly sure how much the tix are but my tickets were 85 and i am in row 12 on the third baseline and i bought seats in the same area during the season and they were around 40, I know its not that much of a jump but I hear people complaining about how expensive it is during the season and paying 90 bucks (with all the dumb fees) is probably a turn off too many, when you could watch it on TV for free. I think we have to many casual fans here that will watch on tv during the breaks of whatever hot reality show is on at the time. I also think the population seems a bit higher because of all the snow birds that come down for the winter, and most of them are all fans of the team in the area that they spend the summers in, ive noticed most the snow birds are Cubs fans, and the bitterness towards the Dbacks right now could be keeping them away. who knows thats just my opinion
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Re: This is good for baseball?

Postby Big Pimpin » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:44 pm

ocicat wrote:
The Cow wrote:A big reason why teams like Colorado and Arizona tickets are easier to come by is that Denver and Phoenix are much smaller cities than Boston. Read fewer people. A city of 1 million people has a smaller ticket base than a city of 10 million. Thats one reason that often gets overlooked. Its easy to sell out when you have a huge fan base due in large part to population.

The Cow


From U.S. Census 2000:

Rank Metropolitan Area, Population [City - Population (rank)]:
7 Boston--Worcester--Lawrence, MA--NH--ME--CT, 5,819,100 [Boston - 589,141(20)]
14 Phoenix--Mesa, AZ, 3,251,876 [Phoenix - 1,321,045 (6)]
16 Cleveland--Akron, OH, 2,945,831 [Cleveland - 478,434 (33)]
19 Denver--Boulder--Greeley, CO, 2,581,506 [Denver - 554,636 (25)]


From the 2006 Census though, Phoenix has closed the gap. Boston Metro is at 4.46M and Phoenix is at 4.04M. I really don't see that as a huge difference. I think it's just a big difference between the history of the organizations and the rabidness of the fans. Plus there are what, 20,000 more seats at a normal park than Fenway? All these things play a role in it IMO.

That being said, it's quite sad that the DBacks can't sell out playoff games. Heck I'm a Mariner fan and a Phoenix transplant, but I'm going to Game 2 tomorrow with a buddy whose firm has tickets and am hoping for a World Series berth so I can go to another game. But I do wish more people around here were baseball fans. It really seems to be all Suns, all the time.
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