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Torre Fired if Yanks Don't Make ALCS

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Re: Torre Fired if Yanks Don't Make ALCS

Postby BronXBombers51 » Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:59 am

Lofunzo wrote:
luckygehrig wrote:Just checking to see if I'm the only one who picked up on this. When Torre decided not to play for a run in Game 2 by bunting over and the Yanks ended up losing that game, a lot of people asked why. A lot of people said "That's just American League baseball. You play for the 3 run home run and teams don't want to waste the out." (I heard this both on sports radio, and read it in the Yankees Mailbag article after that game) Is it just me, or when Joe first took over the Yankees, didn't he play small ball? I remember them bunting a guy over on more than one occasion. Wasn't he praised for bringing National League style baseball to the American League and making it work? And now he's being defended by people saying that's not the way the game is played in the AL? If it worked 11 years ago it should work now. It just seems to me that there are a lot of people jumping to defend Torre's decision making process there when the alternative was exactly what brought him his success with the Yanks in the first place.


You are correct. When he came over, that is the type of team that he had. Guys like Brosius, O'Neill, and Knoblauch were good situational hitters. They could get the 2-out hit. This team can't seem to do that on a consistent basis.


I just don't think Torre has had that type of team in recent years. For years the Yankees have replaced guys like Paul O'Neill, Tino Martinez, Chuck Knoblauch, etc. with Jason Giambi, Gary Sheffield, Hideki Matsui, etc.

The teams have been built on superstars who hit the longball. The Yankees never had a superstar hitter in their glory years. They didn't have an MVP caliber player, outside of Jeter's 1999 season (which he should have won the MVP, what a joke). It was a lot of situational hitting. And that worked for them, because they never really needed to score 7 or 8 runs to win a ballgame. They had guys like Pettitte and Cone and Wells and El Duque who pitched brilliantly, and then they had guys like Nelson, Stanton, Mendoza and Rivera come in and shut the opponent down for the last 3 or 4 innings.

The teams in recent years have been built on hitting instead of the 90s teams which won because of their pitching. The Yankees haven't had a guy who guarantees you a solid postseason start. I think the team might be headed in the right direction, though. This year's team, compared to year's past, has focused more on young pitching and bullpen, and less on big homerun hitters.
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Re: Torre Fired if Yanks Don't Make ALCS

Postby thedude » Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:16 pm

About the whole money thing which has been raised a few times...

This is a story we told in The Wages of Wins, and one we have repeated in this forum a few times. Let’s update this story with the following two observations:

- The combined payroll of the Rockies, Diamondbacks, and Indians was $168,164,183 in 2007. The Yankees, who as I mentioned aren’t playing anymore, spent $189,639.045.

- In 2007, relative payroll (team payroll divided by the average payroll in Major League Baseball) explained 25% of the variation in winning percentage. Or, payroll didn’t explain 75% of winning percentage. Yes, money is statistically significant. But it doesn’t explain much.

By the way, from 1988 to 2007, relative payroll explain 18% of the variation in winning percentage. From 2000 to 2007, the explanatory power is 19%. These results are quite similar to what we report in the hardcover and paperback edition of the book.


http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/10/10/ ... ation-day/
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Re: Torre Fired if Yanks Don't Make ALCS

Postby J35J » Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:26 pm

thedude wrote:About the whole money thing which has been raised a few times...

This is a story we told in The Wages of Wins, and one we have repeated in this forum a few times. Let’s update this story with the following two observations:

- The combined payroll of the Rockies, Diamondbacks, and Indians was $168,164,183 in 2007. The Yankees, who as I mentioned aren’t playing anymore, spent $189,639.045.

- In 2007, relative payroll (team payroll divided by the average payroll in Major League Baseball) explained 25% of the variation in winning percentage. Or, payroll didn’t explain 75% of winning percentage. Yes, money is statistically significant. But it doesn’t explain much.

By the way, from 1988 to 2007, relative payroll explain 18% of the variation in winning percentage. From 2000 to 2007, the explanatory power is 19%. These results are quite similar to what we report in the hardcover and paperback edition of the book.


http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/10/10/ ... ation-day/


I don't think anyone says if you spend the most money you win. Its all about staying at or near the top year in and year out for those who can spend the most money. Also you don't live or die by your high salary guys, if you have the money, because you can just buy another one and the hit on your payroll is easily shrugged off. One thing that gets brought up but doesn't really have anything to do with wins but has ALOT to do with fan loyalty, etc. is being able to sign your own home grown studs.

So no, high payroll doesn't mean you win the championship every year but I don't think thats what most people are concerned with when they discuss correcting the economics of the game, IMO.
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Re: Torre Fired if Yanks Don't Make ALCS

Postby davidmarver » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:29 pm

J35J wrote:I don't think anyone says if you spend the most money you win. Its all about staying at or near the top year in and year out for those who can spend the most money. Also you don't live or die by your high salary guys, if you have the money, because you can just buy another one and the hit on your payroll is easily shrugged off. One thing that gets brought up but doesn't really have anything to do with wins but has ALOT to do with fan loyalty, etc. is being able to sign your own home grown studs.

So no, high payroll doesn't mean you win the championship every year but I don't think thats what most people are concerned with when they discuss correcting the economics of the game, IMO.

True, but I think the new agreement on draft pick compensation is going to drastically help even things out. Good teams signing high profile players are going to lose their top draft pick each time they do so, while the teams losing those players will get cheap home-grown talent to replace it with, assuming they scout well, or at least not poorly.
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Re: Torre Fired if Yanks Don't Make ALCS

Postby mweir145 » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:30 pm

Teams with the most money are able to sign other teams' franchise players, and also draft the best players in the draft despite having a low position. So basically they get the best of both worlds, and that's why you continually see these teams consistently at the top. There is no other major league where it happens like this.
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Re: Torre Fired if Yanks Don't Make ALCS

Postby BronXBombers51 » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:34 pm

You can't guarantee success in the playoffs no matter who you are. The more I think about it, the more I don't understand why Torre is going to be the fall-guy here. What has he done wrong? The guy will likely win the AL Manager of the Year. The guy has gotten the Yankees to the playoffs every single year.

What more are we supposed to expect? This is frustrating. :-°
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Re: Torre Fired if Yanks Don't Make ALCS

Postby davidmarver » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:34 pm

mweir145 wrote:Teams with the most money are able to sign other teams' franchise players, and also draft the best players in the draft despite having a low position. So basically they get the best of both worlds, and that's why you continually see these teams consistently at the top. There is no other major league where it happens like this.

If a team isn't going to fork up for free agency or the draft, the league should revoke that ownership. That's not a flaw of the system, that's just cheap ownership.
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Re: Torre Fired if Yanks Don't Make ALCS

Postby jfg » Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:50 pm

davidmarver wrote:If a team isn't going to fork up for free agency or the draft, the league should revoke that ownership. That's not a flaw of the system, that's just cheap ownership.


I do agree with that to some levels. The Twins had the highest attendence in a long time this year and yet all the talk is still about cutting payroll. So yes, cheap ownership does come into play. But, like I said before, four non-big market teams have made the playoffs since 2000 in the AL. That's not cheap ownership. That's smart ownership because they know that buying a team guarantees them nothing. But, the problem is that buying a team gives you a really good shot of getting in the playoffs. So ,the teams that won't go out and buy a team ( which, whether that is cheap or not consists of a large majority of the league) will have a very small chance of getting in the playoffs and a small window of opportunity if they do become a playoff caliber team. People should not be looking at who's winning the World Series.

1/3 of all MLB teams haven't been to the playoffs in 5 years. 8 teams haven't been to the playoffs in 10 years. The AL East hasn't been won by anybody other the Yankees or Red Sox in 13 years.
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Re: Torre Fired if Yanks Don't Make ALCS

Postby BronXBombers51 » Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:21 pm

Rotoworld wrote:Free agent Mariano Rivera said Wednesday that he'd be less likely to stay with the Yankees if Joe Torre isn't brought back.
Rivera was asked whether his retun hinged on Torre's. "It might do a lot of it," he said. "I mean, I've been with Joe for so many years, and the kind of person he has been for me and for my teammates. It's been great. The thing is that I don't see why they have to put him in this position." Rivera said he is looking for a multiyear deal entering his age 38 season.


Hopefully this has some sort of impact on ownership. I don't really believe that Rivera would leave, mostly because the Yankees will offer the most money, but this has to at least scare the front office.
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