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CAFE NL ROTY: OFFICIAL (UNOFFICIAL) CAFE VOTE

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Who is your NL ROTY

Ryan Braun
69
66%
Hunter Pence
1
1%
Troy Tulowitzki
34
33%
 
Total votes : 104

Re: CAFE NL ROTY: OFFICIAL (UNOFFICIAL) CAFE VOTE

Postby nbb23 » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:13 pm

But remember, offensive stats are not the ONLY stats. Plus don't you think Braun should have helped the Brewers get to the playoffs rather than hurt them? 3 errors in ONE game down the stretch doesn't help that is for sure.
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Re: CAFE NL ROTY: OFFICIAL (UNOFFICIAL) CAFE VOTE

Postby acsguitar » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:24 pm

nbb23 wrote:But remember, offensive stats are not the ONLY stats. Plus don't you think Braun should have helped the Brewers get to the playoffs rather than hurt them? 3 errors in ONE game down the stretch doesn't help that is for sure.



I think the 3 errors in one game down the stretch was not good by braun and may cost him
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Re: CAFE NL ROTY: OFFICIAL (UNOFFICIAL) CAFE VOTE

Postby Scooter1027 » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:20 pm

Still Brauny I think, although Tulo's (and the Rockies') late season surge made it closer than I thought it'd be. Braun's offensively numbers are staggering. He had one of those truly elite offensive seasons, numbers only rivaled by the man Pujols himself. The errors are frustrating, but let's say Braun was in LF and not making these errors. Would this even be a discussion? Part of that's on the Brewers organization. I think Billy Hall should be 3B and Braun in LF, and maybe they will be that way next year (although I doubt it). As it is, you have to take the defense into account and Tulo cleans Braun's clock in that department. However, as previously mentioned, Tulo's terrible away splits are enough for me to stick with Braun, whose offensive and baserunning superiority wins it for me. Tough though, because I like Tulo a lot and he would win it for me most years.

The way I look at it is which player would I rather have on the baseball team (not fantasy) that gives the team the best overall player to help them win games. For me it is a close call, but I think the ROY should definitely be Tulowitzki!


What if "your" team was one of the 29 teams that doesn't play at Coors? Would you take his .256/.327/.393 (.719 OPS), even with the great defense? He's Craig Counsell outside of Coors -- very good defender, pretty poor hitter.
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Re: CAFE NL ROTY: OFFICIAL (UNOFFICIAL) CAFE VOTE

Postby nbb23 » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:03 pm

Scooter1027 wrote:
The way I look at it is which player would I rather have on the baseball team (not fantasy) that gives the team the best overall player to help them win games. For me it is a close call, but I think the ROY should definitely be Tulowitzki!


What if "your" team was one of the 29 teams that doesn't play at Coors? Would you take his .256/.327/.393 (.719 OPS), even with the great defense? He's Craig Counsell outside of Coors -- very good defender, pretty poor hitter.


Yes, I would still take Tulo even with those splits because I think he still brings more intangibles to a team. I'll give you that Braun is an offensive beast and Tulo comes no where close to rivaling his amazing offensive season. But Tulo was given the job to start the season because the Rockies felt he was MLB ready, Braun wasn't MLB ready according to the Brewers. Once Braun was called up he definitely contributed offensive numbers that rival the season Pujols had as a rookie which is amazing, but did he really 'help' his team become better overall as a team?

Tulo on the other hand played at the most important defensive positions and statistically was one of the best fielders in baseball. Granted his offensive stats are not up to Braun's level, but from what I have seen he hits in more clutch situations. Take last night for example since it is fresh (but only one of many examples), he had clutch hits (especially the double in the 13th). He wants the responsibility of being a leader. As a pitcher, I feel a lot more comfortable with Tulo behind me than Braun. He is already a team leader and one of the best SS in the game IMO.

Either way though I think either player is worthy of the ROY award (heck why not a co-ROY ;-D ). I will be disappointed if Tulo doesn't get it, but I think Tulo would much prefer the opportunity at winning the World Series than having an award sitting on the mantle while chilling at home.
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Re: CAFE NL ROTY: OFFICIAL (UNOFFICIAL) CAFE VOTE

Postby Pogotheostrich » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:16 pm

Tulo by a hair. Both had amazing seasons.
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Re: CAFE NL ROTY: OFFICIAL (UNOFFICIAL) CAFE VOTE

Postby Scooter1027 » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:27 pm

nbb23 wrote: Once Braun was called up he definitely contributed offensive numbers that rival the season Pujols had as a rookie which is amazing, but did he really 'help' his team become better overall as a team?


Really, seriously? Braun didn't help his team become better overall? Wow, I'm stunned, I've never heard someone argue that .324/.370/.634 (1.004 OPS) didn't help a team get better. So are the Cards not better off having Pujols? Wow. If you want to argue that Tulo is a better defender and you prefer that, by all means, I can understand that. But if I'm reading this right, you don't think Braun even helped his team. Wow. I don't know where the Brewers would have been without Braun's talent and fire.

I also grow weary of the "if it were my team" argument. If it were my team, I'd have Braun in left field where his speed and power arm would be a defensive plus, and I wouldn't be too thrilled about Tulo's .719 OPS " on my team" outside Coors. That argument can be turned however you want it to be turned.
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Re: CAFE NL ROTY: OFFICIAL (UNOFFICIAL) CAFE VOTE

Postby nbb23 » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:49 pm

I don't know about you but I usually base a teams performance on Wins and Losses. Granted there are other team dynamics and what ifs, but there is no way to isolate how his performance really effected the team other than wins-losses. Braun was called up for the May 25th game I believe and after that point the Brewers went 55-60. That is a losing record, oh and before Braun was called up the Brewers were 28-19. Now he may have put up sexy offensive numbers, but those statistics don't say to me he 'helped' his team become better.

I conceed that Braun has the offensive numbers, never disputed that. But, to me I would vote based on the player overall (offense and defense) and their contribution to the team. I think Tulo lacks in offensive compared to Braun, destroys Braun in defense and overall had a bigger effect on his team. To me that is two categories to one. So yes, I am serious that I don't think Braun had as much of a positive effect on his team as Tulo had on the Rockies.

But as I stated before it is really a tough call because both players are studs and will be for many years to come. Heck, I think it should really be a tie but that isn't going to happen so I give my edge to Tulo. And let us not forget Pence was doing awesome as well before he got hurt. All three players are awesome and I look forward to watching them all in the near future. But for now, only Tulo and the Rockies made it to the playoffs so I will enjoy watching his contributions to his team in the playoffs!
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Re: CAFE NL ROTY: OFFICIAL (UNOFFICIAL) CAFE VOTE

Postby HOOTIE » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:15 pm

A Fleshner Fantasy wrote:Definatly Braun. The stats tell all.


26 errors in 4 months. He might have hit 40 in 6 months. Troy had 11 errors all year at a much more demanding position.

I know Braun had 2 less months abs, and was the better hitter but,

runs created

Troy 103
Braun 102

Surprised so much love for Brauns offense, ignoring he probaby was the worst everyday fielder playing.
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Re: CAFE NL ROTY: OFFICIAL (UNOFFICIAL) CAFE VOTE

Postby Scooter1027 » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:18 pm

nbb23 wrote:I don't know about you but I usually base a teams performance on Wins and Losses. Granted there are other team dynamics and what ifs, but there is no way to isolate how his performance really effected the team other than wins-losses. Braun was called up for the May 25th game I believe and after that point the Brewers went 55-60. That is a losing record, oh and before Braun was called up the Brewers were 28-19. Now he may have put up sexy offensive numbers, but those statistics don't say to me he 'helped' his team become better.

I conceed that Braun has the offensive numbers, never disputed that. But, to me I would vote based on the player overall (offense and defense) and their contribution to the team. I think Tulo lacks in offensive compared to Braun, destroys Braun in defense and overall had a bigger effect on his team. To me that is two categories to one. So yes, I am serious that I don't think Braun had as much of a positive effect on his team as Tulo had on the Rockies.

But as I stated before it is really a tough call because both players are studs and will be for many years to come. Heck, I think it should really be a tie but that isn't going to happen so I give my edge to Tulo. And let us not forget Pence was doing awesome as well before he got hurt. All three players are awesome and I look forward to watching them all in the near future. But for now, only Tulo and the Rockies made it to the playoffs so I will enjoy watching his contributions to his team in the playoffs!


I'm sorry, but I don't buy the W-L argument for a second. Why were the Brewers better before Braun, record wise? The starting pitching was in way over it's heads. Vargas had an era under 4.00, and Suppan and Capuano were both 2.50ish. Fast forward to the end of the season, Cappy and Vargas both above 5.00 and Suppan sitting 4.70ish. That combined with a poor bullpen and poor management lead to the Brewers down fall. In fact, I would argue the opposite of you and say that without Braun, this team is sub-.500 and isn't even competing in September. Conversely, I would argue that Colorado would be okay without Tulo. I think there are quite a few SS who could play solid-to-good defense (maybe not Tulo level), hit well in Coors and hit like Craig Counsell away from Coors. Just my opinion of course. I can (kind of)understand the argument that some people prefer Tulo's defense to Braun's offense, but I cannot accept the insinuation that Braun didn't help this team win. They would have been toast without him.
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Re: CAFE NL ROTY: OFFICIAL (UNOFFICIAL) CAFE VOTE

Postby Scooter1027 » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:23 pm

HOOTIE wrote:
A Fleshner Fantasy wrote:Definatly Braun. The stats tell all.


26 errors in 4 months. He might have hit 40 in 6 months. Troy had 11 errors all year at a much more demanding position.

I know Braun had 2 less months abs, and was the better hitter but,

runs created

Troy 103
Braun 102

Surprised so much love for Brauns offense, ignoring he probaby was the worst everyday fielder playing.


Not a great thing to look at because Tulo played so many more games. How about their respective RC/G (runs created per game):

Troy 6.0
Braun 8.4

Pretty significant difference there in Braun's favor.
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