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Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

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Re: Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

Postby Oatsdad » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:08 pm

noseeum wrote:
I don't get how anyone can say it's perfectly ethical for the second place team to add and drop pitchers every single day to try to catch the first place guy, and yet if the first place guy attempts to put the kibosh on that strategy it's bush league?


Because the guy picking up and dropping starters to make up for negative innings is PLAYING THEM. The other guy is just trying to PREVENT him from using his innings.

I had to think about this issue myself. I'm in 1st in my points league and I'm right about even in terms of IP (1500 IP limit). I'm at -3 right now, so I'll use all of them by the end of the season.

The 2nd place player has been around -400 for a while, so he's throwing 6 or 7 SPs out there every day - just grabbing warm bodies and hoping for the best. And it's gonna work - he's gonna beat me because of the scoring system. We get 10 pts/win but only LOSE 3 points/loss, so the math favors him even if his guys only win 40% of the time.

I didn't have a huge lead when he started doing this - 150 points, maybe - and it's now down to about 35 points. I have one day I can throw out scads of starters: Sunday, when the IP limits go bye-bye as long as you still have 0.1 inning left. I plan to grab as many starters as I can for that day and hope for the best.

But I'm already set on the idea I'll end up in 2nd place. While I don't like that idea, I'd rather be in 2nd honestly than stay in 1st because I use a cheap strategy like this. I thought about doing it but realized it left a bad taste in my mouth. It's a tacky strategy - and against the rules, too... :-t
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Re: Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

Postby noseeum » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:27 pm

Oatsdad wrote:
noseeum wrote:
I don't get how anyone can say it's perfectly ethical for the second place team to add and drop pitchers every single day to try to catch the first place guy, and yet if the first place guy attempts to put the kibosh on that strategy it's bush league?


Because the guy picking up and dropping starters to make up for negative innings is PLAYING THEM. The other guy is just trying to PREVENT him from using his innings.

I had to think about this issue myself. I'm in 1st in my points league and I'm right about even in terms of IP (1500 IP limit). I'm at -3 right now, so I'll use all of them by the end of the season.

The 2nd place player has been around -400 for a while, so he's throwing 6 or 7 SPs out there every day - just grabbing warm bodies and hoping for the best. And it's gonna work - he's gonna beat me because of the scoring system. We get 10 pts/win but only LOSE 3 points/loss, so the math favors him even if his guys only win 40% of the time.

I didn't have a huge lead when he started doing this - 150 points, maybe - and it's now down to about 35 points. I have one day I can throw out scads of starters: Sunday, when the IP limits go bye-bye as long as you still have 0.1 inning left. I plan to grab as many starters as I can for that day and hope for the best.

But I'm already set on the idea I'll end up in 2nd place. While I don't like that idea, I'd rather be in 2nd honestly than stay in 1st because I use a cheap strategy like this. I thought about doing it but realized it left a bad taste in my mouth. It's a tacky strategy - and against the rules, too... :-t


This is perfect. Someone with the opportunity who said no. And it sounds like you thought about it too, so I'd love to here more from you.

Why do you think it's OK for the other guy to grab 6 or 7 SPs a day? Do you think that strategy is tacky too? I'm just wondering if you've decided against the counter because:
a. "I don't care if he beats me using that POS strategy. I'm not playing that way."
or
b. "He's doing something valid, and if I block it, I'm a POS."

because to me, they're both the same. I don't think whether you play a guy or not matters. You're sacrificing roster space which you could use for other purposes. I've said a few times the waiver thing is BS because you're NOT sacrificing roster space. But in this case you are. And to me there's nothing dishonest about it. It's clear what the other guy is trying to do, and it's clear what you can do to prevent it. It's all out in the open. If someone leaves himself so vulnerable that his only chance at victory is needing 6 SPs a day, I don't see why he should win so easily.

But you made the opposite choice, so I'm not arguing with you. Just trying to see where you're coming from. If it's A above, can respect that, although I disagree. If it's B, I'm more confused, and I'll need some help understanding your perspective.
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Re: Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

Postby BitterDodgerFan » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:37 pm

yea but what's on the line oatsdad?

there's a big difference what people will do whether it's just for bragging rights or little money versus thousands of dollars.
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Re: Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

Postby Oatsdad » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:39 pm

ordinarygenius wrote:But deutschland, why is your opponent "way behind" in games started? Because he didn't manage effectively over the course of the season? Because he wanted to protect his ERA/WHIP? Because he didn't care? Couldn't he just be getting what he deserves by waking up with just a few days to go? Honest question.


In my league, it clearly wasn't an ERA/WHIP issue since those aren't involved in scoring. We have:

+10 for a win
-3 for a loss
+1 for a K
-1 for a walk

And bonuses for a CG or a shutout, but nothing for ERA or WHIP. Not sure I like this. It means a guy can give up 10 earned runs in 6 IP but still get you a good 12 points - but someone who throws 8 1-run innings might LOSE you points. Broson Arroyo threw a nice game the other day - 7 shutout innings - but since it was a no-decision and he had 4 walks and only 1 K, I LOST 3 points! :( But the rules are the same for everyone, so I can't complain too much.

Anyway, I think it's weird the 2nd place player in my league just now realized he should use those innings, but I don't think he should be punished for "waking up" late. There's no rule that says you have to use your innings consistently through the year. Waiting until the last minute to use them is risky because you're only getting mediocre pitchers - the good ones are already gone. But I don't see why someone should be prevented from doing this...
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Re: Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

Postby Oatsdad » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:42 pm

BitterDodgerFan wrote:yea but what's on the line oatsdad?

there's a big difference what people will do whether it's just for bragging rights or little money versus thousands of dollars.


The only thing "on the line" is the fact I want to win. No money involved.

And to me, that doesn't change things at all. If the rationale is that this strategy's cheap for "bragging rights" leagues but cool for money leagues, then why not make collusion okay if there's enough money on the line? Apparently cheating's A-OK if some bucks are at stake! ;-7
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Re: Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

Postby Oatsdad » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:46 pm

noseeum wrote:This is perfect. Someone with the opportunity who said no. And it sounds like you thought about it too, so I'd love to here more from you.

Why do you think it's OK for the other guy to grab 6 or 7 SPs a day? Do you think that strategy is tacky too? I'm just wondering if you've decided against the counter because:
a. "I don't care if he beats me using that POS strategy. I'm not playing that way."
or
b. "He's doing something valid, and if I block it, I'm a POS."

because to me, they're both the same. I don't think whether you play a guy or not matters. You're sacrificing roster space which you could use for other purposes. I've said a few times the waiver thing is BS because you're NOT sacrificing roster space. But in this case you are. And to me there's nothing dishonest about it. It's clear what the other guy is trying to do, and it's clear what you can do to prevent it. It's all out in the open. If someone leaves himself so vulnerable that his only chance at victory is needing 6 SPs a day, I don't see why he should win so easily.

But you made the opposite choice, so I'm not arguing with you. Just trying to see where you're coming from. If it's A above, can respect that, although I disagree. If it's B, I'm more confused, and I'll need some help understanding your perspective.


It's both A and B. What he's doing IS valid. As I already mentioned, it's not a smart strategy long-term since he ends up with mediocre SPs at best, but I don't see what's wrong with it. If he'd just done it a couple times a week all season, it'd be the same effect but wouldn't look so obvious.

For whatever reason, he didn't use up many innings through the year. Now he's trying to compensate. So what's the problem? It's not cheating, and it's not even sleazy, IMO. These are players anyone can grab - they're just sitting there on the FA list. If he wants 'em, he can have 'em.

Even if I DID think it was a POS strategy, I wouldn't block it because I don't think two wrongs make a right. But I really have no problem with the strategy. If I were down in IP, I'd sure as shit be doing the same thing...
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Re: Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

Postby noseeum » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:10 pm

Oatsdad wrote:These are players anyone can grab - they're just sitting there on the FA list. If he wants 'em, he can have 'em.

Even if I DID think it was a POS strategy, I wouldn't block it because I don't think two wrongs make a right. But I really have no problem with the strategy. If I were down in IP, I'd sure as shit be doing the same thing...


Right. But for some reason you're telling yourself you're not allowed to grab them. I agree. Anyone can grab them. So why not you if it helps you win?

And I too would do what the other guy is doing if I was in his situation. But if I was in yours, I would be grabbing those guys. I don't see a difference between the strategies. Both owners would be making the most of their current situations. You and others on the thread for some reason see a difference between the two, but just like it's obvious why you grab SPs when you're way down IP, to me it's just as obvious that you grab them if some other owner has left himself that vulnerable. I guess we're at an impasse, but really I just can't even see why one is considered bad and the other is considered good.

Here's another analogy, finance related. Microsoft is looking to buy a piece of Facebook. Because of current contracts, it really only makes sense for Facebook to go with Microsoft and not Google. Google probably would not get much out of buying a portion of Facebook because it would still have to fulfill the Microsoft contracts for a long time. Still, Google is not going to let that stop it from bidding up the price and forcing Microsoft to pay a ridiculous price for that property. Both Google and MS know that Facebook is crucial for MS to gain a beachhead in social networking, so MS has to pay a high price for ti. Both Google and MS know Google would get nothing out of Facebook for a while, except the knowledge that it prevented Microsoft from inching closer to it's lead.

Is it wrong for Google to bid up the price and will even pay it on a money loser just to prevent MS from getting it? I don't think so. I think it's protecting your position, and it's only right that Google does it.

That's how I view this move. Protecting the position you've earned over the season. I know you guys see it different, but I hope I've explained my own view clearly enough.
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Re: Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

Postby Oatsdad » Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:14 pm

And all I'll say is this:

Yahoo's rules: "No owner will make any roster moves (including waiver claims, trade proposals, etc.) whose sole purpose is to hamper the play of other owners."

So it's cheesy AND against the rules... :-t
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Re: Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

Postby deutschland » Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:58 pm

Tavish wrote:Its fairly blatant cheating. From the ESPN fantasy baseball rules:

C: Impeding other owners

Certain transactions made solely to impede other owners are not allowed. In particular, cycling through players in free agency to put them on waivers and make them unavailable to other teams in your league is strictly prohibited and is grounds for expulsion from the game. Please see the waivers and free agency section of the rules for more information.



Yahoo has a similar sportsmanship clause.



The part that I think would apply to my situation is:
cycling through players in free agency to put them on waivers and make them unavailable to other teams in your league is strictly prohibited

But I have not been picking up and dropping players to put them on waivers for their scheduled starts. I have been picking them up for their scheduled games, using some, not using others, then dropping them afterwards. This of course doesn't touch on the ethical or moral aspect, but I think my particular actions aren't breaking this rule.
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Re: Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

Postby great gretzky » Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:42 pm

pickup and dropping just so the waivers take too long to make the players usable is the intent I think Yahoo intends. you can speculate, change your mind, etc. But when you make an assembly line out of it, that's when it gets unfair. You are essentially giving yourself an unlimited bench(in a way of thinking) because no one can roster the players.

Otherwise, the whole premise of the game is for me to "hamper" the play of others, i.e. me finishing ahead of them...
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