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Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

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Re: Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

Postby noseeum » Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:46 am

Tavish wrote:Its fairly blatant cheating. From the ESPN fantasy baseball rules:

C: Impeding other owners

Certain transactions made solely to impede other owners are not allowed. In particular, cycling through players in free agency to put them on waivers and make them unavailable to other teams in your league is strictly prohibited and is grounds for expulsion from the game. Please see the waivers and free agency section of the rules for more information.



Yahoo has a similar sportsmanship clause.


Read this closely though. First word, "certain." Not all, but "certain" transactions.

Next, "cycling... to put them on waivers."

That's not what he's doing. He's keeping them on his roster. The way I read this rule, he's not breaking it. As I said in my previous post, the other guy is the one that's churning. This guy is just countering the churn.
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Re: Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

Postby Tavish » Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:22 am

Whisp wrote:if you're picking them up in case you MIGHT use them, that's fine.

and that's why the rule can never really be enforced.


There's no doubt it is next to impossible to enforce. It is more an ethics question than a rules question. If people feel that what they are doing is not breaking the intent of the rules or that they should be able to do something because the game framework allows it there really isn't anything that can stop them. Breaking a rule that can't be enforced doesn't make it legal or right.
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Re: Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

Postby Bwanna » Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:35 am

noseeum wrote:That's not what he's doing. He's keeping them on his roster. The way I read this rule, he's not breaking it. As I said in my previous post, the other guy is the one that's churning. This guy is just countering the churn.

I didn't think the other guy is churning... he's streaming starters -- right? The original poster is trying to get first dibs at the stream of spot starters, which serves two purposes -- provides him with a potential spot start and prevents his opponent from spot starting the pitchers that have enough value to start.
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Re: Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

Postby Tavish » Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:36 am

noseeum wrote:
Tavish wrote:Its fairly blatant cheating. From the ESPN fantasy baseball rules:

C: Impeding other owners

Certain transactions made solely to impede other owners are not allowed. In particular, cycling through players in free agency to put them on waivers and make them unavailable to other teams in your league is strictly prohibited and is grounds for expulsion from the game. Please see the waivers and free agency section of the rules for more information.



Yahoo has a similar sportsmanship clause.


Read this closely though. First word, "certain." Not all, but "certain" transactions.

Next, "cycling... to put them on waivers."

That's not what he's doing. He's keeping them on his roster. The way I read this rule, he's not breaking it. As I said in my previous post, the other guy is the one that's churning. This guy is just countering the churn.


I did read it closely. The rule is pretty straight-forward when it comes to the type of transactions it is talking about. Picking up free agents to make them unavailable to other teams is against the rule. That is what the OP was talking about.
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Re: Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

Postby Bwanna » Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:39 am

Tavish wrote:Picking up free agents to make them unavailable to other teams is against the rule. That is what the OP was talking about.

I picked up Ryan Braun when he first came up, and I really did not have a good corner or even utility spot for him, but I sure as heck wasn't going let my opponents take a flyer on him.

I should probably forfeit my Yahoo league now.

;-7
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Re: Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

Postby Tavish » Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:51 am

Bwanna wrote:
Tavish wrote:Picking up free agents to make them unavailable to other teams is against the rule. That is what the OP was talking about.

I picked up Ryan Braun when he first came up, and I really did not have a good corner or even utility spot for him, but I sure as heck wasn't going let my opponents take a flyer on him.

I should probably forfeit my Yahoo league now.

;-7

I bet you drafted SP too. That is clearly against the rules, if you want to play right you would skip the draft, drop all your players that are autodrafted and sit with an empty roster all year that way you aren't keeping anyone from having access to any player they want. That is clearly what ESPN and Yahoo intended the rule to mean.

Seriously, if you don't want to concede the difference between picking up a hot player or strong prospect and churning we might as well just agree to disagree because we aren't going to get anywhere.
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Re: Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

Postby J35J » Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:54 am

Bwanna wrote:
Tavish wrote:Picking up free agents to make them unavailable to other teams is against the rule. That is what the OP was talking about.

I picked up Ryan Braun when he first came up, and I really did not have a good corner or even utility spot for him, but I sure as heck wasn't going let my opponents take a flyer on him.

I should probably forfeit my Yahoo league now.

;-7


I don't think you get it....? :-? The rules are against players who pick up multiple pitchers, not to start them, but just to turn around and dump them so his opponent can't get them. The only intention of picking them up is to prevent the other owner from using them. That is bush league!!! If you pick up 1 or 2 players who you plan on keeping and may or may not start depending on how they do then that is fine. But if you are picking up 2,3 or 4 players every day or every other day when your only intention with those players is so nobody else can use them that is wrong, IMO. Your Ryan Braun scenerio is not even close to what the rule is talking about. :-)
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Re: Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

Postby Bwanna » Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:21 am

J35J wrote:I don't think you get it....? :-? The rules are against players who pick up multiple pitchers, not to start them, but just to turn around and dump them so his opponent can't get them. The only intention of picking them up is to prevent the other owner from using them. That is bush league!!! If you pick up 1 or 2 players who you plan on keeping and may or may not start depending on how they do then that is fine. But if you are picking up 2,3 or 4 players every day or every other day when your only intention with those players is so nobody else can use them that is wrong, IMO. Your Ryan Braun scenerio is not even close to what the rule is talking about. :-)


Yeah, I get it. I'm just arguing and being a bit silly for the sake of arguing now (sorry). I know what churning is, and it's unfortunate that ESPN apparently doesn't have the same mechanisms in place that Yahoo added a few years ago to help discourage (not prevent) this.

J35J wrote:Your Ryan Braun scenerio is not even close to what the rule is talking about. :-)

I agree that it is a tremendous stretch (again, sorry), but it does have a common aspect -- keeping your opponent from getting stats. The difference of course being that you aren't speculating on any potential gain for your team. The original poster commented later that he was picking up starters that he might or might not start (potential gain), with the additional bonus of blocking his opponent from starters with value. So, I honestly don't think this qualifies as churning.

BTW, you'll always have stuff like this happen in leagues where 1) there's no move limit, and/or 2) there are no transaction fees. If it makes you sick at your stomach and violates your civil liberties, then don't play in a league without those two qualifications.
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Re: Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

Postby ordinarygenius » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:32 pm

But deutschland, why is your opponent "way behind" in games started? Because he didn't manage effectively over the course of the season? Because he wanted to protect his ERA/WHIP? Because he didn't care? Couldn't he just be getting what he deserves by waking up with just a few days to go? Honest question.
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Re: Is blocking SPs unethical/illegal in roto?

Postby noseeum » Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:38 pm

ordinarygenius wrote:But deutschland, why is your opponent "way behind" in games started? Because he didn't manage effectively over the course of the season? Because he wanted to protect his ERA/WHIP? Because he didn't care? Couldn't he just be getting what he deserves by waking up with just a few days to go? Honest question.


That's what I'm saying. The other guy had a strategy too. "Use relievers early on to lead in saves/WHIP/ERA, then get my pick of the litter for starters when everyone else has used up starts and is focused on relievers." Everyone else is supposed to just sit and watch it happen? "Oh, darn it, I sure could win this league if there was some way, just some way, to make it harder for him to pick up five SPs every day. What, oh what, am I to do? Oh well, I guess I'll just lose." Sounds like a real competitive setup to me.

Free agents are available to anyone in the league for whatever purpose they choose, IMO. If you add him and drop him immediately for waiver reset BS, that's wrong, but if you keep him on your squad for a day, I can't see why that's bad when that's exactly what the other guy is doing: Adding one day and dropping the next.

What about when the Sox bid up the price on a free agent they don't want in order to force the Yankees to over pay? Is that unfair too?

Side note: so churning and streaming are two different things? Churning is the add/drop waiver reset? Streaming is just running through SPs every day? Thought they were both the second one.
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