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Postby GSes » Thu Feb 12, 2004 4:00 pm

Fumbler wrote:Whoa, chill out bud.

I never said this was the only strategy. I apologize if you took it that way.

You attacked my strategy. I defended myself trying to explain why i think this works best.

I'm not forcing anyone to use this strategy.

Part of the fun is seeing how the different strategies play out. :-)


hope that wasnt directed at me....I agree with you that is a good strategy and it will get you in the playoffs. I prefer roto b/c all the little h2h strategies such as that one fail to mirror the real game.
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Postby Fumbler » Thu Feb 12, 2004 4:26 pm

Sorry GSes. That wasn't directed towards you.

Rather than defending your strategy, another way of reacting could have been for you to taking the advice and applying it.


So that means your way is the only way then? ;-)

The top closers are completely overrated by most people, because in truth they only give major support in one catagory. You have more or less admitted that the only way they can help in a big way in ERA and WHIP is if you literally punt the other catagories and hope you get the minimum IP.


And for the strategy i use, they're not over-rated. And it never comes down to hoping i get the minimum innings pitched. Not even close to that. Most of the times i try to win 10-0 if possible (so i'm not punting that much). It all depends on the matchups that week and how the first few starters do.

I am trying to help people here by giving them sound advice.
You are trying to explain how wasting 2 top picks on closers will lock up your pitching catagories every week.


No, what you're saying is that your way is the only way to do it instead of being open to other suggestions. Might want to practice what you preach.
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Thu Feb 12, 2004 4:54 pm

Fumbler wrote:Sorry GSes. That wasn't directed towards you.

Rather than defending your strategy, another way of reacting could have been for you to taking the advice and applying it.


So that means your way is the only way then? ;-)

No, it means that since Ive been here this topic comes up regularly with a lot of knowledgable, experienced fbballers agreeing that in standard h2h or roto leagues the best strategy isnt to waste early picks on closers. Im not going to take credit for this opinion, but I do follow it. I guess you have to ask, is one opinion better than another? Or, is one strategy better than another? My answer is yes to both.

The top closers are completely overrated by most people, because in truth they only give major support in one catagory. You have more or less admitted that the only way they can help in a big way in ERA and WHIP is if you literally punt the other catagories and hope you get the minimum IP.


And for the strategy i use, they're not over-rated. And it never comes down to hoping i get the minimum innings pitched. Not even close to that. Most of the times i try to win 10-0 if possible (so i'm not punting that much). It all depends on the matchups that week and how the first few starters do.

And the competition. Dont forget that. If you are playing with guys that allow you to waste 2 of your first 4-5 picks on closers and still beat them every week on offense, then I guess thats a great strategy.

I am trying to help people here by giving them sound advice.
You are trying to explain how wasting 2 top picks on closers will lock up your pitching catagories every week.


No, what you're saying is that your way is the only way to do it instead of being open to other suggestions. Might want to practice what you preach.

Nope, just that one way is better than another. Just because someone has a different opinion doesnt make it a good one. However, if by some chance someone were to speak out and say that an idea or strategy is bad, then all of a sudden that person is labeled as being unprogressive. Too funny.
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Postby mikcou » Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:04 pm

Cornbread Maxwell wrote:
accohen wrote:Come on guys.........I can't believe that you would say 4-5 closers. I get this argument everytime, and I just don't understand it. Besides the top 4-5 closers, all of the other guys are essentially crapshoots, who add VERY LITTLE to your overall ERA/WHIP/K's given the insignificant amount of innings they pitch. I will ALWAYS go with th 4 category starting pitcher over the 1 category closer any day of the week. Load up early with the SP and then late with the closers. I say, in a 5 x 5 league, the best scenarios are 7 SP and 2 closers, or what may actually be better is 6 SP, 2 closers, and a good middle relief (someone like K-Rod who will help you with K's and wins, and have more innings pitched than a typical closer to help with ERA as well).......just my opinion.....


4-5 closers every yr.
Notice, Im not suggesting taking them early. Quite the contrary. Always look for value. I completely agree that no closer contributes much to any catagory but saves becaue of thier IP. Gagne in the 1st or 2nd is a joke.
However, because they dont contribute much to ERA, or WHIP, whats the harm of running out as many of them as you can?

Since in roto one rarely uses a full alottment of offensive players on the bench, why not stock up on P? For instance, I try and have 1 util (elligible for multiple positions) offensive player on my bench, and the rest SP. Notice, I am not suggesting rotating your SP blindly off the bench for every start, but rather playing matchups. Sure, your studs will start most of the time, but your 3-4-5-6 SPs can be started when favorable matchups come along. All the while you are dominating saves cause you're running out 5 closers a day.

One last thing, closers are gold when it comes to trades.


I like using this strategy too ;-D
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Postby Guest » Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:48 pm

Nope, just that one way is better than another. Just because someone has a different opinion doesnt make it a good one.


My thoughts exactly.

However, if by some chance someone were to speak out and say that an idea or strategy is bad, then all of a sudden that person is labeled as being unprogressive. Too funny.


First, i'm getting tired of you putting words in my mouth. I've never said your strategy was bad. And i'm not telling others this is the definitive end-all strategy. This is a discussion forum. I think others are smart enough to make up their own minds.

Second, you're the only that's saying that an idea or stratey is bad and it's apparent that you're the only one labeling people. So, yes, i do think it's "too funny" that you can't take your own advice.

And the competition. Dont forget that. If you are playing with guys that allow you to waste 2 of your first 4-5 picks on closers and still beat them every week on offense, then I guess thats a great strategy.


Maybe if you'd actually read my posts you'd see that i only take about 2 top tier closers and two average-better than average closers.

The whole part of this strategy is that you're not wasting picks on starting pitchers. So while the other guys are using their picks for pitchers (like you apparently), i'll be taking better offensive players.

That's how my offense is better. Was that easy enough for you to understand? :-)
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Postby Fumbler » Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:50 pm

Doh!

That was my post above in case you couldn't figure it out! ;-)
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:02 pm

Anonymous wrote:Maybe if you'd actually read my posts you'd see that i only take about 2 top tier closers and two average-better than average closers.

The whole part of this strategy is that you're not wasting picks on starting pitchers. So while the other guys are using their picks for pitchers (like you apparently), i'll be taking better offensive players.

That's how my offense is better. Was that easy enough for you to understand? :-)


When were you planning on drafting those 2 top tier closers? Since the top tier are gone by the 5th, and the above average are gone by the 12th. You are dedicating 2 of your first 5 picks to closers, and 2 more in the next 7. Yet you still dominate offense? Can I play in your league?

Im an offense first guy by the way, so I guess it isnt that apparant.
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Postby Fumbler » Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:39 pm

When were you planning on drafting those 2 top tier closers? Since the top tier are gone by the 5th, and the above average are gone by the 12th. You are dedicating 2 of your first 5 picks to closers, and 2 more in the next 7. Yet you still dominate offense?


Yes, because i'm not taking any starting pitchers. That's the key.

When other people are taking their starters i'm taking my closers. The more starters someone takes in the early and middle rounds, the better my offense is gonna be.

Im an offense first guy by the way, so I guess it isnt that apparant.


Playing guys that go offense first i have a chance to sweep the pitching categories because their starters are gonna be weaker just like mine.

Can I play in your league?


School will be in session soon. :-D
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Postby colour wolf » Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:55 pm

Cornbread Maxwell wrote:Closers dont pitch enough innings to make a large contribution in those catagories. Sure the top closers have incredible ERAs and WHIPs, but because its only for 1 inning at a time, the overall affect on your weekly (or yearly) stats is minimal, thus making them essentially one catagory guys.


This is an outrageous statement. Gagne is a one category player? Nonsense. If 'the vast majority' of people on this site believe this, then I hope that they are in my pool.

Let's look at probably the two best ERA and WHIP pitchers in the NL last year, Gagne and Schmidt. I think the league ERA in my NL-pool last year was about 4 and the WHIP was about 1.35.

Let's say that you have 1000 innings before you add their numbers to the mix.

Your final totals are:

w/ Schmidt: ERA: 3.71 WHIP: 1.282
w/ Gagne ERA: 3.78 WHIP: 1.300

Schmidt is clearly better, but not by that much. I would argue that the average closer contributes MORE to ERA and WHIP than the average starter, by virtue of their much better average ERA's and WHIP's.
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Postby bronxxbomber » Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:08 pm

Purple Haze wrote:If you don't get one of the top 5 SP's they are a crap shoot as well... in an average 12 team league if every owner has 5 SP's that is 60 SP's and there is a lot more than 60 sp's in all of MLB that can get you good stats, if you pick and choose situations carefully... Closers are important to help keep innings down... 4 good closers will net you over 200+ inngs 200+K's (If you choose the right ones) a 3.50 ERA (Get Smoltz/Gagne/Wagner/Foulke to hold ERA down) 1.25 whip (Same concept as ERA) 120+ saves and at least 10 wins (Maybe 15-20) Those numbers are as good as a top 5 SP... This is my startegy.. I never worry about SP's, unless they slip a lot farther than they are supposed to, but I never reach for a SP.. Hitters are a lot more consistant (The top hitters) Than SP's are... This is all my humble opinion, but its worked for several years, and helped me win many baseball leagues (But maybe I was just playing with chumps) I'm not telling anyone to use this startegy..(Please don't ;-7 ) Just my humble opinion on this topic, and how I handle it..

Peace and Chickengrease! :-° :-° :-°


I find it a little hard to agree with your assertion. Pitchers aren't really a crapshoot as much as rps are. It's so hard to guage which closers will get the most saves. Sure, gagne or wagner seem like sure bets, but are you saying you think that the top 25 closers are comparible to the top 25 SP's. I don't think gagne, smoltz, and wagner even combined for 10 wins last season. Starters are just more reliable and more available. Just think 4 good or great SP (prior, zambrano, piniero, beckett) and you can expect about 70 wins sub 3.30 era sub 1.20 whip and 770 k's. And it's feasible to land them as opposed to 4 good or great rps. Ok, I understand that's it's probably because you're in a league of chumps, but you must sacriface something to draft 4-5 closers in a 12 team league :~(.
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