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Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

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Re: Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

Postby Fantasy Man 27 » Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:33 am

dipset wrote:
Yoda wrote:
rails80 wrote:For all those who say Reyes isn't exciting, you aren't offering up any names of who is a more exciting ballplayer to watch. So far all I've heard is that Hanley Ramirez is a better player, and that people would rather "have" Pujols or Miggy.

Who do you all think is the most exciting baseball player to watch. Don't give me stats. Give me reasons. ;-)


People saying that they consider Pujols, Miggy and Hanley to be more exciting since they are better than Reyes. Not sure how you missed it.


What are they better at? hitting? thats just one part of the game. Reyes is better at fielding, throwing, and baserunning. SO that would make reyes better than them at 3/4 concepts of the game right there. So just cause the other 3 are better hitters how does it make them better baseball players?


Yeah...that Pujols guy is a scrub at fielding. Reyes is 500 times better than him.
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Re: Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

Postby Fantasy Man 27 » Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:37 am

nyrblue2 wrote:Why just look at batting average for the Reyes - Hanley debate? Hanley's BABIP is .359. Reyes' is .328. Based on this stat, you can argue that Hanley is just getting luckier than Reyes because his batted balls are falling in for more hits.

Sure, pro players can hit the ball to certain parts of the field on purpose. But if they both hit a ball the same way to right field, why does it make Hanley better because a fatty in right can't catch up to it, while a speed-demon in right can catch Reyes' line drive?

Another interesting way to look at it would be to combine these stats for the 2 guys: Total Bases, Walks and Stolen Bases (I would also throw in Reached on Error and Reached on Fielder's Choice, but I couldn't find those #'s). To me, this gives a quantity of total bases that they "earned". The regular total bases stat doesn't take into account BB and SB. Interested in the numbers?

Reyes - 375
Hanley - 371

Who's more "valuable" now?

Anyone care to comment on the validity of this argument? It's ridiculous right? I agree. I'll be the first to admit that these so-called "observed and codified" stats can be twisted into any shape that supports your argument.

I'm not trying to completely defend Reyes over Hanley, even though I am a NYM fan. Honestly, there are plenty of times when I would rather have Hanley's HR over a Reyes single. But when they both get singles, the majority of the time, Reyes will do more to get himself around the bases with steals. There are probably times when you can just accept the fact that Hanley will get stranded on first base, but that is never the case with Reyes. He always brings the possibility of extending an inning with his base-running.

That's excitement.

Isn't that what this thread was about?


Reyes has been caught stealing 15 times. Hanley has been caught stealing 12 times. Using your more "valuable" mathematical formula, that brings the total to:

Reyes - 360
Hanley - 359

I'd hate to bring up HRs, RBIs, Runs, as those stats mean absolutely nothing.
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Re: Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

Postby nyrblue2 » Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:20 pm

Fantasy Man 27 wrote:Reyes has been caught stealing 15 times. Hanley has been caught stealing 12 times. Using your more "valuable" mathematical formula, that brings the total to:

Reyes - 360
Hanley - 359



Touche... :*)

My point there wasn't really to "prove" that Reyes was more valuable. I admit that my formula is completely ridiculous. I was just giving my opinion that even stats can be completely subjective. The same is true for the "excitement" factor.
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Re: Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

Postby George_Foreman » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:40 pm

nyrblue2 wrote:
Fantasy Man 27 wrote:Reyes has been caught stealing 15 times. Hanley has been caught stealing 12 times. Using your more "valuable" mathematical formula, that brings the total to:

Reyes - 360
Hanley - 359



Touche... :*)

My point there wasn't really to "prove" that Reyes was more valuable. I admit that my formula is completely ridiculous. I was just giving my opinion that even stats can be completely subjective. The same is true for the "excitement" factor.

Stats are subjective when you just make them up. When they actually mean something, they're not subjective....
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Re: Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

Postby pokerplaya » Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:09 pm

George_Foreman wrote:
nyrblue2 wrote:
Fantasy Man 27 wrote:Reyes has been caught stealing 15 times. Hanley has been caught stealing 12 times. Using your more "valuable" mathematical formula, that brings the total to:

Reyes - 360
Hanley - 359



Touche... :*)

My point there wasn't really to "prove" that Reyes was more valuable. I admit that my formula is completely ridiculous. I was just giving my opinion that even stats can be completely subjective. The same is true for the "excitement" factor.

Stats are subjective when you just make them up. When they actually mean something, they're not subjective....


Stats are very vunerable to manipulation. The point is, you can manipulate just about any stat to make the point that you want to make. That's why stats can be very deceiving. From an unbiased party, yes, they are very useful, but many times they do not come from an unbiased party.
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Re: Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

Postby dipset » Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:34 am

What are they better at? hitting? thats just one part of the game. Reyes is better at fielding, throwing, and baserunning. SO that would make reyes better than them at 3/4 concepts of the game right there. So just cause the other 3 are better hitters how does it make them better baseball players?[/quote]

Yeah...that Pujols guy is a scrub at fielding. Reyes is 500 times better than him.[/quote]

Shortstop is much tougher to play than first base.... put pujols at short and he wont do what reyes does
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Re: Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

Postby Yoda » Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:10 pm

dipset wrote:Shortstop is much tougher to play than first base.... put pujols at short and he wont do what reyes does


So Reyes is a better athlete but that doesn't make him a better baseball player. The hardest thing to do in sports is to hit a baseball. Until Reyes is even close to a top 10 hitter in baseball, I would not consider him anywhere near the most exciting player no matter how many bases he steals.
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Re: Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

Postby Kingctb27 » Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:22 am

^ Says who? I'd argue that stealing 50 bases is a little harder to do than hit .330.

I'll guarantee that there are more .330 hitters than guys who steal 50 bases in a season.
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Re: Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

Postby J35J » Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:32 am

Kingctb27 wrote:^ Says who? I'd argue that stealing 50 bases is a little harder to do than hit .330.

I'll guarantee that there are more .330 hitters than guys who steal 50 bases in a season.



This thread is amazing! I'm really baffled/speechless by this thread!
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Re: Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

Postby bigh0rt » Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:42 am

Yoda wrote:
dipset wrote:Shortstop is much tougher to play than first base.... put pujols at short and he wont do what reyes does


So Reyes is a better athlete but that doesn't make him a better baseball player. The hardest thing to do in sports is to hit a baseball. Until Reyes is even close to a top 10 hitter in baseball, I would not consider him anywhere near the most exciting player no matter how many bases he steals.

Since we're so far off-topic, I might as well disagree with this statement. Hitting a baseball is not the most difficult thing to do in sports; even if you're looking at things from a purely fundamental stance.
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