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Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

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Re: Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

Postby George_Foreman » Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:46 am

pokerplaya wrote:
George_Foreman wrote:Well, I disagree insofar as I can say Player A has hit .330 this year while Player B has hit .300. Therefore, player A has been the better hitter. I mean, it's really hard to interpret those numbers in a way that makes Player B the better hitter, no? "Excitement" is an emotion, caused by things unique to each individual. "Base hit" is a thing which is observed and codified by MLB. I don't see how one can conflate them and say they're both subjective.

As for bitter, well, maybe in the Reyes+Wright4MVP thread. But not really in this one.


While I do agree that Hanley has been a better hitter this year, there is a whole slew of stats that are also taken into consideration when discussing a players worth. Hanley will be ahead in some, Reyes in others. It's when you have to take all of these stats and formulate who you think is a "better player" for fantasy or real life both, that it becomes subjective.

Also, how can someone truly rate the defensive aptitude of a player? Sure, there are stats that attempt to do so, but they are simply a mathematical attempt to quantify the defensive skills of a player. And while they have their use, they are very flawed, and the only way to really understand a players defensive talent is to watch with your own eyes. And that is the very definition of subjective.

Helping your baseball team is something that can be quantified to one degree or another. You can argue which method is more accurate and stuff like that, but it's based on analysis and facts. "Exciting" is something you feel. You cannot quantify it. At least, not unless you want to set up some survey and see how people report their "excitement" level (measured from 1-10 maybe? hope there's no self-reporting bias based on wanting players from their teams to be higher on the excite-o-meter! better get approval from the human subjects review board before undertaking this little experiment!) at various points in a ball game. Sound absurd? Well, it is. This whole discussion of who is more exciting is absurd. At least trying to have a debate about it is. It's like trying to analyze which Swim Suit issue model is the hottest; it's a matter of personal preference and nothing more.

Like I said earlier, this kind of thing belongs in cheering/venting, not here.
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Re: Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

Postby Guzman24 » Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:19 am

SJNez46 wrote:ya, Reyes isnt as good as Hanley in H2H because he dominates in only one category,


I disagree. Reyes basically wins me the steals category on his own each and every week. I only have to designate 1 spot in my lineup for speed (SS), the rest I can fill with power bats.
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Re: Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

Postby pokerplaya » Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:19 am

George_Foreman wrote:
pokerplaya wrote:
George_Foreman wrote:Well, I disagree insofar as I can say Player A has hit .330 this year while Player B has hit .300. Therefore, player A has been the better hitter. I mean, it's really hard to interpret those numbers in a way that makes Player B the better hitter, no? "Excitement" is an emotion, caused by things unique to each individual. "Base hit" is a thing which is observed and codified by MLB. I don't see how one can conflate them and say they're both subjective.

As for bitter, well, maybe in the Reyes+Wright4MVP thread. But not really in this one.


While I do agree that Hanley has been a better hitter this year, there is a whole slew of stats that are also taken into consideration when discussing a players worth. Hanley will be ahead in some, Reyes in others. It's when you have to take all of these stats and formulate who you think is a "better player" for fantasy or real life both, that it becomes subjective.

Also, how can someone truly rate the defensive aptitude of a player? Sure, there are stats that attempt to do so, but they are simply a mathematical attempt to quantify the defensive skills of a player. And while they have their use, they are very flawed, and the only way to really understand a players defensive talent is to watch with your own eyes. And that is the very definition of subjective.

Helping your baseball team is something that can be quantified to one degree or another. You can argue which method is more accurate and stuff like that, but it's based on analysis and facts. "Exciting" is something you feel. You cannot quantify it. At least, not unless you want to set up some survey and see how people report their "excitement" level (measured from 1-10 maybe? hope there's no self-reporting bias based on wanting players from their teams to be higher on the excite-o-meter! better get approval from the human subjects review board before undertaking this little experiment!) at various points in a ball game. Sound absurd? Well, it is. This whole discussion of who is more exciting is absurd. At least trying to have a debate about it is. It's like trying to analyze which Swim Suit issue model is the hottest; it's a matter of personal preference and nothing more.

Like I said earlier, this kind of thing belongs in cheering/venting, not here.


Understood, and agreed to a certain extent. However, clearly the mods have no problem with it in Leftovers, so why don't you just drop that point and let it be? I don't see how this thread being in Leftovers effects you, but clearly this perceived NY bias really gets under your skin.
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Re: Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

Postby bigh0rt » Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:41 pm

Well, at least everybody managed to stay on-topic. :-b
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Re: Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

Postby Tavish » Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:06 pm

Reyes is the 3rd most exciting shortstop in New York.
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Re: Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

Postby nyrblue2 » Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:54 pm

Why just look at batting average for the Reyes - Hanley debate? Hanley's BABIP is .359. Reyes' is .328. Based on this stat, you can argue that Hanley is just getting luckier than Reyes because his batted balls are falling in for more hits.

Sure, pro players can hit the ball to certain parts of the field on purpose. But if they both hit a ball the same way to right field, why does it make Hanley better because a fatty in right can't catch up to it, while a speed-demon in right can catch Reyes' line drive?

Another interesting way to look at it would be to combine these stats for the 2 guys: Total Bases, Walks and Stolen Bases (I would also throw in Reached on Error and Reached on Fielder's Choice, but I couldn't find those #'s). To me, this gives a quantity of total bases that they "earned". The regular total bases stat doesn't take into account BB and SB. Interested in the numbers?

Reyes - 375
Hanley - 371

Who's more "valuable" now?

Anyone care to comment on the validity of this argument? It's ridiculous right? I agree. I'll be the first to admit that these so-called "observed and codified" stats can be twisted into any shape that supports your argument.

I'm not trying to completely defend Reyes over Hanley, even though I am a NYM fan. Honestly, there are plenty of times when I would rather have Hanley's HR over a Reyes single. But when they both get singles, the majority of the time, Reyes will do more to get himself around the bases with steals. There are probably times when you can just accept the fact that Hanley will get stranded on first base, but that is never the case with Reyes. He always brings the possibility of extending an inning with his base-running.

That's excitement.

Isn't that what this thread was about?
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Re: Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

Postby Tavish » Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:36 pm

nyrblue2 wrote:I'm not trying to completely defend Reyes over Hanley, even though I am a NYM fan. Honestly, there are plenty of times when I would rather have Hanley's HR over a Reyes single. But when they both get singles, the majority of the time, Reyes will do more to get himself around the bases with steals.


The problem is that the amount of times they get singles isn't about the same. That's the difference between Reyes' .440 SLG and Hanley's .560. He isn't stealing as many bases, he doesn't have to. He gets himself around the bases with HRs and doubles.
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Re: Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

Postby dipset » Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:31 pm

I dont understand the BABIP stat.... does it mean batting average for the balls they put in play? If so i dont understand how one can be lucky? What if someone hits linedrives all the time while someone else doesnt strikeout much but pops it up all the time and hits soft grounders?
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Re: Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

Postby nyrblue2 » Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:37 pm

BABIP is exactly what you said - Batting Average per Balls In Play. It doesn't take into account HR or K's. I understand what you mean about how a line drive hitter is probably more talented than someone who just pops it up all the time. But the fact that the MLB BABIP average is consistently right around .300 or just over every year shows something to a certain extent. If a guy is way above .300, it means that a lot of his balls put in play just happen to be falling where fielders aren't.
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Re: Reyes IS the most exciting player in the game...

Postby JTWood » Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:45 pm

dipset wrote:I dont understand the BABIP stat.... does it mean batting average for the balls they put in play? If so i dont understand how one can be lucky? What if someone hits linedrives all the time while someone else doesnt strikeout much but pops it up all the time and hits soft grounders?

Studies have shown that only about 5% of the entire MLB population of hitters have enough ability to actually control where the ball goes consistently. If players don't have control over where the ball goes, then it follows that outs are bad luck and hits are good luck. 95% of the population will live around a BABIP mean of about 30%, or .300. If a player is well over or under that line for an extended time, then there's a good chance for a BA adjustment when a streak of opposite luck comes around.
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